nisaba
baba-prague said:
Go back and tell her why! Otherwise she'll never learn.
Have you ever been a deck snob?
Go back and tell her why! Otherwise she'll never learn.
Cat*
Is that a German thing? Because I've seen the same weird looks at the few tarot meet-ups I've been to. Even when other decks were merely mentioned and not even shown around.Astraea Aurora said:
I found that the snobbery contained a noticeable dose of fear, though. As if people didn't dare to read with any other deck that had been approved of by the resident experts or "experts" and as if the mere idea of even considering that any other deck might have value was blasphemous and/or ridiculous and/or crazy.
I'm sort of a "I'll show you that this so-called silly deck can give the deepest readings" snob, you know... Wanna meet up and be read for with the Housewives or the Manara?Astraea Aurora said:
And just go and look at the Hello Tarot High Priestess and tell me it isn't genius to have a mouthless cat for that card...)And to get back to the original question: Yes, I am a deck snob. I'm totally prejudiced about anything that is done mostly in pastels and/or that focuses heavily on angels, fairies, mermaids, and the likes (which still hasn't prevented me from buying the Fey and getting good readings from it). I'm also very prejudiced about anything that is oh-so-full of serious esoteric symbology and whatnot (which hasn't prevented me from giving in to the Thoth and getting good readings from it, too).
In the end, my prejudice doesn't have much to do with the decks themselves, though. I've seen too many deep readings from pastel decks and too many funny ones from "serious" decks to think that the deck is the deciding factor in the quality of readings or readers. My prejudice therefore comes down to my assumptions about the people who use these kinds of decks. Pastel unicorns = fluffy bunny who refuses to acknowledge (let alone embrace) their own darkness. Serious esoteric symbology = thinks too much and feels too little, uses the esoteric system to appear smarter/more magickal/more deep than others. I've met people from both groups in real life, so these stereotypes do have some relation to my reality - which is not to say that one can conclude anything about the quality of anyone's readings by seeing which decks they use.
Oh, and I'm also a snob about correct anatomy and perspective in decks. Which doesn't mean that every creature in a deck has to look as if it was a photograph. Comic exaggeration is fine, so-called naive art is fine, distorting bodies or perspectives on purpose is fine, collage as a technique is fine, even photocollage in itself is fine with me. Just please no bad art that clearly aimed for a correctness/realism the artist couldn't achieve due to a lack of skill. It can ruin a deck for me completely. And I'll probably judge the owner of such a deck as a philistine (which again wouldn't say anything about the quality of their readings).
In the end, however, the reader's abilities to give good readings with whatever medium they chose are what counts.
Alta
Goodness you folks are making me nervous, I read with pretty well anything and never thought my querents might care! erk.
I have nothing particular against Doreen Virtue decks except I find that people (not here) don't try and use them in any depth. My fav story is having a 'reading' where she literally picked up the book and read aloud the passage on the card that I had selected. I was sort of stunned because I know from members here, like bec who is great with them, that they can be read in depth.
I have nothing particular against Doreen Virtue decks except I find that people (not here) don't try and use them in any depth. My fav story is having a 'reading' where she literally picked up the book and read aloud the passage on the card that I had selected. I was sort of stunned because I know from members here, like bec who is great with them, that they can be read in depth.
baba-prague
Alta said:
You're probably right Alta. I have a definite prejudice about the Doreen decks - I suppose this goes back to the conversation with Scion a while back about the way esoteric publishing has moved towards a certain kind of bland sweetness in recent years. But I will go and look at what bec is doing with the deck and try to be more open. Mind-you, in general I am really not a Doreen fan so it will take a bit of effort on my part!
gregory
I probably used to be; I repented after the small matter of the Mystic Faerie... 
(mind you, this was as a reader rather than querent....)
I don't know about being faced with a reading from a deck that made me feel ill..... I have to agree that a Doreen Virtue sitting on a table telling me stuff would trouble me, as would an angels deck - the sort that isn't tarot - they make me feel a bit creeped. They likely can be read in depth, indeed I'm sure they can - but - well, I like readers who give you a choice of deck, in some circumstances.
But as long as it is a TAROT deck, I like to think I can read with practically anything. Oracles so far have not worked for me, and when someone here made me try with pix from magazines - nor did they.
(mind you, this was as a reader rather than querent....)I don't know about being faced with a reading from a deck that made me feel ill..... I have to agree that a Doreen Virtue sitting on a table telling me stuff would trouble me, as would an angels deck - the sort that isn't tarot - they make me feel a bit creeped. They likely can be read in depth, indeed I'm sure they can - but - well, I like readers who give you a choice of deck, in some circumstances.
But as long as it is a TAROT deck, I like to think I can read with practically anything. Oracles so far have not worked for me, and when someone here made me try with pix from magazines - nor did they.
Astraea Aurora
Hell yeah, I think so, too. We're ruled by book authors writing their 1,000st book about the RWS!!! Not to diminish the experts and their works, I find them interesting and well done. But I want some variation in my life as well. Maybe it's due to a generation shift? The deck snobs I know are all 35 to 40+ and firmly rooted in their jobs, circles of friends, family, I'm in my 20s and still studying.Cat* said:Is that a German thing? Because I've seen the same weird looks at the few tarot meet-ups I've been to. Even when other decks were merely mentioned and not even shown around.
I found that the snobbery contained a noticeable dose of fear, though. As if people didn't dare to read with any other deck that had been approved of by the resident experts or "experts" and as if the mere idea of even considering that any other deck might have value was blasphemous and/or ridiculous and/or crazy.
I'm fine with the Housewives, they're pretty humorous. And I own the Manara as well. Mouthless cats, well that's another storyCat* said:I'm sort of a "I'll show you that this so-called silly deck can give the deepest readings" snob, you know... Wanna meet up and be read for with the Housewives or the Manara?
Astraea Aurora
tabi
I personally have only had my cards read by SoS from here, I let her pick whatever deck she wants to use. True there are some of her decks that there is no way that I would be able to get anything from but as long as she can read them what does it matter if I like the deck or not?
Now on the other hand, I only buy decks that *I* am drawn too. I see no point of buying something just to buy it. Also if there is a deck I buy and I don't do well with it it moves on to someone else. So there are certain decks that I would absolutely refuse to buy on look alone: The Gummy Bear Tarot, sorry but gummys having boobies creeps me out. But yet the deck I learned on was the Quest and I can't begin to tell you how many people who go: How/Why on earth would you do that!?!?
So I read what works for me, you can read what works for you, just don't ask me to use it. Does that make me a deck snob?!?! Oh well cuz it works.
Now on the other hand, I only buy decks that *I* am drawn too. I see no point of buying something just to buy it. Also if there is a deck I buy and I don't do well with it it moves on to someone else. So there are certain decks that I would absolutely refuse to buy on look alone: The Gummy Bear Tarot, sorry but gummys having boobies creeps me out. But yet the deck I learned on was the Quest and I can't begin to tell you how many people who go: How/Why on earth would you do that!?!?
So I read what works for me, you can read what works for you, just don't ask me to use it. Does that make me a deck snob?!?! Oh well cuz it works.
Scion
Hell, yes. Elitist to the core. If something is good, be it deck or reader, that cancels out most things. I believe in meritocracy, deeply and fundamentally and obsessively.
It makes me think of auditions.
When young actors are starting out, they'll all grumble about how impossible it is to get into the room, let alone get taken seriously by people prioducing any show. That includes the sleaziest, dumbest, most cheeseball projects. One of the ways a young actor signals to casting offices and producers is by the representation through which they're submitted to a production office, the CV credits, even the professionalism of the headshot. These things are just the baseline for any actor who wants to work and get paid for it. The truth is, most projects are cast out of a VERY limited pool of talent. People work with actors they know and respect because money is on the line and peopel don't like to gamble with millions. Much easier to pick up the phone and just see if Cate Blanchett is available than to hold a cattle call and see if by a miracle someoneone equally skilled, gifted, and qualified will turn up. SO.... young actors will grumble about nepotism and favoritism and how all the work goes to this small group of "proven" people (which it does) and how producers are narrow-minded and cautious (which they are) and how it's virtually impossible to even get taken seriously starting out (which it is). But every year, a few talented folks claw out of the herd, into the room and start the precarious climb towards joining the 1200 people who actually work regularly.
I've sat on the other side of the table for literally hundreds and hundreds of auditions. Actually it could be thousands. Most of the people I'm with behind those tables have done the same. The entire function of an audition is to meet a need for a project... everyone WANTS to find the perfect person to step into each pair of shoes so we can all go home and get some sleep before the sh!t hits the fan. We aren't turning away people to be mean, but rather because experience has shown us certain things that keep us from wasting time. Since most shows are cast in private meetings with known talent, this means that "cattle call" open auditions are worse than a needle in a haystack. The odds of anyone casting an unproven actor are next to nothing. Therefore, every whiff of the amatuer, the slightest hint of ineptitude, any chance of hysteria will kill the deal. Time and love are the two things you can't buy.
To whit: if an actor sends in a handwritten CV on scratch paper and their only credit is a college produciton of ANNIE... they probably don't need to read for HEDDA. If they don't have a headshot, but send in a snapshot that's cut in half to remove people, they aren't serious enough to be bothered with. If people cry or rage in the room, they're very likely unstable. Simple basic rules of professionalism that form a boujndary to protect the millions on the line. The whole world works this way. Would you go to a lawyer operating out of the back of a truck? Would you buy food sold from a dumpster, howveer appetizing? Do you select medications because of the colorful packaging?
Tarot is exactly like that.
When I look at a deck, if I see certain elements that I know are quick fixes or sloppy details or half-assed, simple-minded shortcuts I won't bother; I know those decks are designed to hug me sporadically and tell me that I'm pretty and misunderstood. If I see byzantine, overly-complex pseudo-symbolism cobbled together out of half-assed research, I know better; I've read the books the creators have and I can SEE where they ballsed it up. If I see artwork that is mawkish/ugly/misguided/untrained/careless I know the person didn't care enough about their deck to convey it properly. If I see a theme that hasn't been thought through, a topic that isn't researched, a marketing driven ploy to hook a demographic, I know that I am going to be frustrated and lose interest. If a reader can wring meaning out of dross, mazel tov... but their odds ARE worse working with something half-baked. All of these things make me an elitist. Tough. As my mother used to say when I was a child, "If you cared about it you would have taken care of it."
I don't believe in egalitarian creation. I have had brilliant readings from lame decks, but you can't tell me that a great reader with a great deck doesn't have a better shot. You can't tell me that a crap reader with a great deck doesn't start off from a better position to improve. Back to the show metaphor: if I cast Cate Blanchett in a GB Shaw, I'm better off than if I cast Paris Hilton in GB Shaw. But then, Blanchett could probably elevate Playboy Channel softcore. Um, duh?
In all these casual, rapid dismissals of decks, I have to accept the fact that the "new" Cate Blanchett equivalent might be going in the bin accidentally. Here's the thing: Cate Blanchett knows better than to make those silly mistakes. Great readers can use a silly deck and speak greatness, obviously. But a silly deck in the hands of a nitwit is NOT equivalent. To suggest so is a syllogistic fallacy. Anyone who isn't a little skeptical about hearing about losing their job from the Hello Tarot would seem a little scary. And every great reader who LOVES the Witchy Tarot may be getting apocalyptic, redemptive readings out of it, but (as I said in another thread) surely no one is going to compare it to the TdM or the RWS or the Thoth. That kind of status is earned, not conferred.
This is where I think it's telling that we live in a media culture oversaturated with Awards shows; as if handing out lots of statuettes makes someone worth watching. The funny thing is: it just produces lots of people famous for going to awards shows. The ratio of ability to acclaim is often very small; that's just the business. The thing is, many great performers get awards eventually... they can't help it. But the award is not why they're great; it's a by-product.
So to get back to starlightexp's question... Yes. Obviously. Fluffy pretty cuddlekins OR spiky, vicious sneerfests, equally empty almost always. If someone pulls out the Doreen Virtue (or equivalent) anything, it's a red flag. If they use a theme deck to talk bollocks about subjects I've studied, ditto. If everything in a reading is a platitude or pop psych culled from a silly companion book, triple ditto.
BUT... like auditions, I live in hope. When I have the time and the patience, I still keep my eyes open in the cattle call with actors and decks. I think its important to leave room for unexpected possibilities. There are diamonds in mud, but how long do you plan on digging? Sometimes there are surprises. They are just very, very, very rare... which shouldn't be surprising at all.
Scion
It makes me think of auditions.
When young actors are starting out, they'll all grumble about how impossible it is to get into the room, let alone get taken seriously by people prioducing any show. That includes the sleaziest, dumbest, most cheeseball projects. One of the ways a young actor signals to casting offices and producers is by the representation through which they're submitted to a production office, the CV credits, even the professionalism of the headshot. These things are just the baseline for any actor who wants to work and get paid for it. The truth is, most projects are cast out of a VERY limited pool of talent. People work with actors they know and respect because money is on the line and peopel don't like to gamble with millions. Much easier to pick up the phone and just see if Cate Blanchett is available than to hold a cattle call and see if by a miracle someoneone equally skilled, gifted, and qualified will turn up. SO.... young actors will grumble about nepotism and favoritism and how all the work goes to this small group of "proven" people (which it does) and how producers are narrow-minded and cautious (which they are) and how it's virtually impossible to even get taken seriously starting out (which it is). But every year, a few talented folks claw out of the herd, into the room and start the precarious climb towards joining the 1200 people who actually work regularly.
I've sat on the other side of the table for literally hundreds and hundreds of auditions. Actually it could be thousands. Most of the people I'm with behind those tables have done the same. The entire function of an audition is to meet a need for a project... everyone WANTS to find the perfect person to step into each pair of shoes so we can all go home and get some sleep before the sh!t hits the fan. We aren't turning away people to be mean, but rather because experience has shown us certain things that keep us from wasting time. Since most shows are cast in private meetings with known talent, this means that "cattle call" open auditions are worse than a needle in a haystack. The odds of anyone casting an unproven actor are next to nothing. Therefore, every whiff of the amatuer, the slightest hint of ineptitude, any chance of hysteria will kill the deal. Time and love are the two things you can't buy.
To whit: if an actor sends in a handwritten CV on scratch paper and their only credit is a college produciton of ANNIE... they probably don't need to read for HEDDA. If they don't have a headshot, but send in a snapshot that's cut in half to remove people, they aren't serious enough to be bothered with. If people cry or rage in the room, they're very likely unstable. Simple basic rules of professionalism that form a boujndary to protect the millions on the line. The whole world works this way. Would you go to a lawyer operating out of the back of a truck? Would you buy food sold from a dumpster, howveer appetizing? Do you select medications because of the colorful packaging?
Tarot is exactly like that.
When I look at a deck, if I see certain elements that I know are quick fixes or sloppy details or half-assed, simple-minded shortcuts I won't bother; I know those decks are designed to hug me sporadically and tell me that I'm pretty and misunderstood. If I see byzantine, overly-complex pseudo-symbolism cobbled together out of half-assed research, I know better; I've read the books the creators have and I can SEE where they ballsed it up. If I see artwork that is mawkish/ugly/misguided/untrained/careless I know the person didn't care enough about their deck to convey it properly. If I see a theme that hasn't been thought through, a topic that isn't researched, a marketing driven ploy to hook a demographic, I know that I am going to be frustrated and lose interest. If a reader can wring meaning out of dross, mazel tov... but their odds ARE worse working with something half-baked. All of these things make me an elitist. Tough. As my mother used to say when I was a child, "If you cared about it you would have taken care of it."
I don't believe in egalitarian creation. I have had brilliant readings from lame decks, but you can't tell me that a great reader with a great deck doesn't have a better shot. You can't tell me that a crap reader with a great deck doesn't start off from a better position to improve. Back to the show metaphor: if I cast Cate Blanchett in a GB Shaw, I'm better off than if I cast Paris Hilton in GB Shaw. But then, Blanchett could probably elevate Playboy Channel softcore. Um, duh?
In all these casual, rapid dismissals of decks, I have to accept the fact that the "new" Cate Blanchett equivalent might be going in the bin accidentally. Here's the thing: Cate Blanchett knows better than to make those silly mistakes. Great readers can use a silly deck and speak greatness, obviously. But a silly deck in the hands of a nitwit is NOT equivalent. To suggest so is a syllogistic fallacy. Anyone who isn't a little skeptical about hearing about losing their job from the Hello Tarot would seem a little scary.
And every great reader who LOVES the Witchy Tarot may be getting apocalyptic, redemptive readings out of it, but (as I said in another thread) surely no one is going to compare it to the TdM or the RWS or the Thoth. That kind of status is earned, not conferred.This is where I think it's telling that we live in a media culture oversaturated with Awards shows; as if handing out lots of statuettes makes someone worth watching. The funny thing is: it just produces lots of people famous for going to awards shows. The ratio of ability to acclaim is often very small; that's just the business. The thing is, many great performers get awards eventually... they can't help it. But the award is not why they're great; it's a by-product.
So to get back to starlightexp's question... Yes. Obviously. Fluffy pretty cuddlekins OR spiky, vicious sneerfests, equally empty almost always. If someone pulls out the Doreen Virtue (or equivalent) anything, it's a red flag. If they use a theme deck to talk bollocks about subjects I've studied, ditto. If everything in a reading is a platitude or pop psych culled from a silly companion book, triple ditto.
BUT... like auditions, I live in hope. When I have the time and the patience, I still keep my eyes open in the cattle call with actors and decks. I think its important to leave room for unexpected possibilities. There are diamonds in mud, but how long do you plan on digging? Sometimes there are surprises. They are just very, very, very rare... which shouldn't be surprising at all.
Scion
OnePotato
Q: What did the "biggest" fish say before he got eaten?
A: He said, "When I read a book, I see everything that's in it."
A: He said, "When I read a book, I see everything that's in it."
.traveller.
I've been on the receiving end of "deck snobbery".
The deck? Aquarian, go figure.
I still remember the expression on the person's face and the derision in her voice.
I was amused.
On my side of things, it's the reader not the cards, and I am easily impressed when someone whips out a great reading with a "silly" deck.
Something along the lines of, "how the eff did you just do that?!"
The deck? Aquarian, go figure.
I still remember the expression on the person's face and the derision in her voice.
I was amused.
On my side of things, it's the reader not the cards, and I am easily impressed when someone whips out a great reading with a "silly" deck.
Something along the lines of, "how the eff did you just do that?!"
