Ronia
I just read that for a chart to be considered Saturn should not be in the 7th or its ruler... It that's so, then this chart is actually not working at all... Any ideas?
Horary chart - help needed
Minderwiz
Well I think you both are making a real good start on this!! I'm very tempted to let you continue for a bit but I'll make some clarifications for you and see what you think.
Firstly we should check to see if there are any considerations before judgement - such as Ascendant in an early or late degree or the Moon Void of Course - In this case there are not.
Yes, she is signified by the Moon as Cancer is rising. The Moon is in Virgo, where it has dignity as the Triplicity Ruler (It's a nocturnal chart). So it (and by extension) she has reasonable power to act. The third House position says more about her than him - it shows her focus or even her physical position when she asked the question. Normally we would have direct knowledge of this as we would have talked to the querent. So she might have been at her sister's (brother's) home or at a neighbour's when she asked the question, or she might have been on a routine short journey (such as round to see a friend). It's unlikely that these were her focus when she asked (as they are not referred to in the question) but we might possibly surmise that she's thinking of making such a small but important journey (to him?). The other way we can see her focus (rather than location) is through the dignities that the Moon is in - in particular we would be looking to see if the Moon is in any dignity of Saturn. It is - it's in Saturn's Terms. Not a strong dignity but it does show that she has thoughts for him.
He is signified by Saturn, ruler of Capricorn and the seventh House. Saturn in Libra is in exaltation, so he also is quite strong - these two could come together if they so decide. Saturn is in the fourth House so he's well placed (accessible to her). Saturn is also emerging from Combustion - so he's increasingly visible to her. That doesn't have to be taken literally, it may simply mean that she's increasingly aware of him and increasingly taking notice. The trouble is Saturn is not in any dignity of the Moon, so he isn't focussed on her as much as she is on him.
Is there an aspect forming between Moon and Saturn - as you have recognised the Moon is moving towards a conjunction but it's over 30 degrees away from that conjunction - in fact the Moon is inconjunct Saturn at the moment. So the Moon/Saturn aspect is not there.
As Flaxen points out Frawley uses Venus (for her) and Sun (for him) as co-significators in romance questions. Now he gets that from Lilly, who used them in marriage questions but here we're only dealing with a possible meeting, not them setting up house together - so I'm not sure if those additional significators are needed. It depends how smitten she is - so some feedback on that would help clarify matters. However it is interesting that Saturn is in a dignity of Venus - so if we can use these significators, we now have him interested in her, as well as her interested in him.
Let's look at them anyway. We're looking for aspects of Venus and Sun that are applying, or between Sun and Moon (him and her) or Saturn and Venus (him and her). Aspects between Moon and Venus or Sun and Saturn don't help, as these pairs are both significators of the same person.
Firstly Venus is at 18 Scorpio, nearly as far away from the Sun as she gets and at the moment she's still edging further away, so this pair offer no resolution.
The Sun at 0 Scorpio is also over 40 degrees from the Sun, and closing so no prospect of a major aspect there (before the Moon conjoins the Sun it would have already conjoined Saturn so this too is not a resolution).
Venus at 18 Scorpio is just under 30 degrees ahead and separating from Saturn, so that too doesn't offer a resolution.
There's no aspect forming between the significatos that would point to a meeting.
Quite often a resolution will come about because the two significators contact by antiscia. That is they lie an equal distance from the Solstice line (0 Cancer - 0 Capricorn) but on opposite sides. Sadly all our significators are on the same side of the solstice line, so there's no joy here either.
Incidentally, if we felt that the question indicated a lower level of serious relationship than to warrant the two additional significators, I might be tempted to see Venus as a possible girlfriend or object of his desires at the moment. But it would be nice if there was some background information which either confirmed or negated that possibility.
It doesn't look good for that meeting, though thankfully the question is limited to the end of the year, so it's quite possible that things could develop later.
One last observation - I would always take 'meeting' here to be a significant event that directly sparks an immediate and positive reaction. Simply bumping into each other and saying hello, and then shyly wandering off, tongue tied, is not significant. So him saying hello to her in passing or asking her the time of having a brief conversation isn't significant. The hidden part of the question is that the meeting is going to directly lead to something big.
Firstly we should check to see if there are any considerations before judgement - such as Ascendant in an early or late degree or the Moon Void of Course - In this case there are not.
Yes, she is signified by the Moon as Cancer is rising. The Moon is in Virgo, where it has dignity as the Triplicity Ruler (It's a nocturnal chart). So it (and by extension) she has reasonable power to act. The third House position says more about her than him - it shows her focus or even her physical position when she asked the question. Normally we would have direct knowledge of this as we would have talked to the querent. So she might have been at her sister's (brother's) home or at a neighbour's when she asked the question, or she might have been on a routine short journey (such as round to see a friend). It's unlikely that these were her focus when she asked (as they are not referred to in the question) but we might possibly surmise that she's thinking of making such a small but important journey (to him?). The other way we can see her focus (rather than location) is through the dignities that the Moon is in - in particular we would be looking to see if the Moon is in any dignity of Saturn. It is - it's in Saturn's Terms. Not a strong dignity but it does show that she has thoughts for him.
He is signified by Saturn, ruler of Capricorn and the seventh House. Saturn in Libra is in exaltation, so he also is quite strong - these two could come together if they so decide. Saturn is in the fourth House so he's well placed (accessible to her). Saturn is also emerging from Combustion - so he's increasingly visible to her. That doesn't have to be taken literally, it may simply mean that she's increasingly aware of him and increasingly taking notice. The trouble is Saturn is not in any dignity of the Moon, so he isn't focussed on her as much as she is on him.
Is there an aspect forming between Moon and Saturn - as you have recognised the Moon is moving towards a conjunction but it's over 30 degrees away from that conjunction - in fact the Moon is inconjunct Saturn at the moment. So the Moon/Saturn aspect is not there.
As Flaxen points out Frawley uses Venus (for her) and Sun (for him) as co-significators in romance questions. Now he gets that from Lilly, who used them in marriage questions but here we're only dealing with a possible meeting, not them setting up house together - so I'm not sure if those additional significators are needed. It depends how smitten she is - so some feedback on that would help clarify matters. However it is interesting that Saturn is in a dignity of Venus - so if we can use these significators, we now have him interested in her, as well as her interested in him.
Let's look at them anyway. We're looking for aspects of Venus and Sun that are applying, or between Sun and Moon (him and her) or Saturn and Venus (him and her). Aspects between Moon and Venus or Sun and Saturn don't help, as these pairs are both significators of the same person.
Firstly Venus is at 18 Scorpio, nearly as far away from the Sun as she gets and at the moment she's still edging further away, so this pair offer no resolution.
The Sun at 0 Scorpio is also over 40 degrees from the Sun, and closing so no prospect of a major aspect there (before the Moon conjoins the Sun it would have already conjoined Saturn so this too is not a resolution).
Venus at 18 Scorpio is just under 30 degrees ahead and separating from Saturn, so that too doesn't offer a resolution.
There's no aspect forming between the significatos that would point to a meeting.
Quite often a resolution will come about because the two significators contact by antiscia. That is they lie an equal distance from the Solstice line (0 Cancer - 0 Capricorn) but on opposite sides. Sadly all our significators are on the same side of the solstice line, so there's no joy here either.
Incidentally, if we felt that the question indicated a lower level of serious relationship than to warrant the two additional significators, I might be tempted to see Venus as a possible girlfriend or object of his desires at the moment. But it would be nice if there was some background information which either confirmed or negated that possibility.
It doesn't look good for that meeting, though thankfully the question is limited to the end of the year, so it's quite possible that things could develop later.
One last observation - I would always take 'meeting' here to be a significant event that directly sparks an immediate and positive reaction. Simply bumping into each other and saying hello, and then shyly wandering off, tongue tied, is not significant. So him saying hello to her in passing or asking her the time of having a brief conversation isn't significant. The hidden part of the question is that the meeting is going to directly lead to something big.
Minderwiz
That would only be the case if Saturn was not a significator of either the querent (her) or the quesited (him/the meeting) and in this case it's a question about meeting him, so I don't take that as a problem in this case.
In other questions where Saturn is not a significator, Saturn in the seventh is seen as a restriction on the Astrologer's judgement - as the Astrologer is also signified by the seventh. Saturn ruling the seventh is never really a problem, unless it's actually in the seventh and if Saturn is dignified in the seventh, then the consideration might be relaxed.
Minderwiz
I don't know if this is right thread to ask... I am begginer in horary astrologydo you mind if I answer on some questions sometimes, or comment previous answers?
(sorry for grammatical mistakes, english is not my native language)
Please feel free to do so!!
It's good that you are interested
Ronia
Minderwiz, thanks a bunch for the brilliant lesson! I'm really very interested now! It's fascinating!
Cor serpentis , thank you too! You're far further in your knowledge, I really enjoyed reading your ideas!
OK, here's what I got from her, trying to shed some light:
- she truly thinks of "travelling" to him, that is the journey, short but a journey still, it's interesting that if she does it she will literally enter his home surroundings, the small area where he lives (Moon in 4th house LOL);
- she feels strong, I'm not sure on what this is based as she doesn't share anyhing particular but she feels she only needs one chance to get him interested;
- he is strong by nature of what I know - a mature, accomplished, stable, successful person, yet in the personal area he hasn't had much luck and it seems that's making him vulnerable and also somehow closed, very private (4th house?), he prefers staying in, literally and figuratively;
- of what I get from her, he is not the type that will fall for someone easily, so yes - he is not that much into her, if at all now, also with this past of his it seems he's trying to stay away at this point;
- I can't really see them as Venus/Sun or any similar serious relationship significators at this point, she's determined to get a contact but not obsessed with the outcome;
- if he's interested - considering his privacy, that he looks at her at all seems a good sign;
- a possible girlfriend for him - I don't know and she doesn't know either, he's ended a long term realtionship a few months ago and has indicated he was out of the game for now but who knows...
- yes, I also think a "meeting", "contact", etc is meant to lead to something aalthough she seems prepared for a long wait as she says this will take quite a bit of time (don't know if she's referring to his Cap sign or to something I don't know.
Minderwiz, I wanted to ask about that:
"The other way we can see her focus (rather than location) is through the dignities that the Moon is in - in particular we would be looking to see if the Moon is in any dignity of Saturn. It is - it's in Saturn's Terms. Not a strong dignity but it does show that she has thoughts for him."
What does it mean that the Moon is in Saturn's terms? How do I get this?
Also, why do we ignore the conjunction Moon/Saturn here? The MOon is fast, or it doesn't matter? What I mean is we don't look at current aspects (inconjunct) but look for future ones or not?
Cor serpentis , thank you too! You're far further in your knowledge, I really enjoyed reading your ideas!
OK, here's what I got from her, trying to shed some light:
- she truly thinks of "travelling" to him, that is the journey, short but a journey still, it's interesting that if she does it she will literally enter his home surroundings, the small area where he lives (Moon in 4th house LOL);
- she feels strong, I'm not sure on what this is based as she doesn't share anyhing particular but she feels she only needs one chance to get him interested;
- he is strong by nature of what I know - a mature, accomplished, stable, successful person, yet in the personal area he hasn't had much luck and it seems that's making him vulnerable and also somehow closed, very private (4th house?), he prefers staying in, literally and figuratively;
- of what I get from her, he is not the type that will fall for someone easily, so yes - he is not that much into her, if at all now, also with this past of his it seems he's trying to stay away at this point;
- I can't really see them as Venus/Sun or any similar serious relationship significators at this point, she's determined to get a contact but not obsessed with the outcome;
- if he's interested - considering his privacy, that he looks at her at all seems a good sign;
- a possible girlfriend for him - I don't know and she doesn't know either, he's ended a long term realtionship a few months ago and has indicated he was out of the game for now but who knows...
- yes, I also think a "meeting", "contact", etc is meant to lead to something aalthough she seems prepared for a long wait as she says this will take quite a bit of time (don't know if she's referring to his Cap sign or to something I don't know.
Minderwiz, I wanted to ask about that:
"The other way we can see her focus (rather than location) is through the dignities that the Moon is in - in particular we would be looking to see if the Moon is in any dignity of Saturn. It is - it's in Saturn's Terms. Not a strong dignity but it does show that she has thoughts for him."
What does it mean that the Moon is in Saturn's terms? How do I get this?
Also, why do we ignore the conjunction Moon/Saturn here? The MOon is fast, or it doesn't matter? What I mean is we don't look at current aspects (inconjunct) but look for future ones or not?
Ronia
Cor serpentis, where did you get the other boyfriend from? Mars?
Cor serpentis
Yes, from Mars...
Speed of Moon doesn't have influence. Neither conjuction of Moon and Saturn. Moon will
1. change sign
2. make aspect with other planet
before conjuction with Saturn (it is called frustration). It can not be considered as conjuction.
Speed of Moon doesn't have influence. Neither conjuction of Moon and Saturn. Moon will
1. change sign
2. make aspect with other planet
before conjuction with Saturn (it is called frustration). It can not be considered as conjuction.
Ronia
Aha. I'll let her know there is another one coming. Yet, knowing her, I doubt she will give up easily. LOL
What really surprised me was she was able to cast this chart and did it right. Something I wouldn't be able to do.
Yet, knowing her, I doubt she will give up easily. LOLWhat really surprised me was she was able to cast this chart and did it right. Something I wouldn't be able to do.
Minderwiz
Terms is one of the traditional essential dignities. Unfortunately there are two versions, one by Ptolemy and a pre-existing one used by Dorotheus of Sidon and often referred to as Egyptian Terms, because they were used by the Hellenistic Astrologers based in Alexandria. The Terms are a fivefold division of a sign into rather unequal slices. They were used a lot in Hellenistic and Medieval Astrology and Lilly is still using them in the Seventeenth Century.
In this case the Moon is in the Terms ruled by Saturn in the sign of Virgo. (from 18 degrees Virgo to 24 degrees) This dignity counts less than Triplcity, Exaltation or Rulership. You can see a table of Ptolemy's dignities at:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html
Cor Serpentis is right, in so far as the Moon will aspect Venus first (it's 10 minutes away from perfecting a sextile) so the conjunction with Saturn is prohibited - it's not the Moon's next major aspect. Strictly speaking as the Moon is not applying to the conjunction with Saturn, it's not technically a prohibition as that requires that the two significators are applying.
Frustration is a type of Prohibition but one which requires the slower planet (Saturn in this case) to perfect an aspect with a third planet before the Moon/Saturn aspect is perfected. This won't happen as there's no planet that's going to make a major aspect to Saturn.
Cor Serpentis is right to point out that the Moon will have to change signs before it begins to apply to Saturn and that also rules out the aspect. I didn't bother going that far as the Moon/Venus sextile has already proibited the matter.
The Moon/Mars aspect is interesting - we have to remember that both Moon, Mars and Saturn are continually moving but Cor Serpentis is right the sextile to Mars is perfected just before the conjunction to Saturn. However the Sextile to Venus has already prohibited the Moon/Saturn conjunction as the resolution of the question - it happens after the question as been asked by well before the Moon/Mars sextile and the even later, Moon/Saturn sextile.
Can Mars be seen as a potential other boyfriend? If the Mars Venus sextile had not already prohibited the matter propounded, I'd totally agree. As it is, I still can't rule it out - it's possible that another man will enter her life.
So good work everyone and a very good start Cor Serpentis.
Ronia
OK, I got it now.
