Reading Against the Grain

[greatdane]

I have read so much here about traditional, intuitive, a mix of each, the best way to learn, the only way to learn, etc etc. Just speaking for myself, because who else can I really speak for?, this is what I have found for ME....

If you have to fight against the "traditional" meaning regarding a card, maybe you should stick with what works for you. So if the MICE mean socializing to you, and that's in your head when you read, maybe that's what you should see it as. I have read many readings here and many don't use what I consider the traditional meanings, at least not ones I know. Does that mean they're not reading Lenormand? Hey, if they're using the Lenormand symbols and giving their definition of the cards and their reading, I would say they're reading Lenormand. There are some great books, great resources on Lenormand. If there was only ONE way to look at Lenormand, I wouldn't think there would need to be more than one. If you watch youtube videos of different readers, most have similarities, but they don't read exactly alike. So are they not all equally valid?

While I like the traditional images, picking certain descriptions and saying that is the only way, the only LENORMAND way to read, well, and which way would that be? And let me clarify, I am what I consider a pretty traditional reader. I did go through many "traditional" definitions, most of which were fairly similar, and picked which ones resonated with me. Most cards I have from one to three possible descriptors depending on the question and the layout, and again, they have come from "traditional" meanings. I read a three card layout in at least one of the traditional ways. So yes, I consider myself a traditionalist when it comes to Lenormand.

Some readers use meanings from one school, and yet use layouts from another and consider themselves traditionalists, they're just combining what worked for them.

I find reading in a fairly traditional way makes sense for me. The FOX, the CLOVER, the traditional meanings make sense to me. But it's really what a card means to you. If one or several or all of the traditional descriptions don't work for you, if you like the traditional cards but give them different meanings and it works for you...well, the proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

The most helpful thing for me was to read a lot online, look at videos, read descriptions from different schools, including Ronia's Russian meanings, and it all just came together and felt right.

We all have our own journey though. Lenormand may have that more traditional, fairly set system, which works for me, but really in the end, for me traditional means the traditional symbols. That's a Lenormand deck. That's the tradition. Not whether I think of the FOX one way and someone else may see it another.

So while it may be easy to just totally try to envelope oneself in ONE particular system, rather than allowing intuition or combining systems, in the end....sometimes going a little against the grain may bring you better results, if it's what makes sense to you. It's what WE and our sitters get out of the readings that matter.

 

[Ryver]

Thank you for posting this. I like the part in Rana George's book where she advises the reader to decide which card is going to mean a certain something for them in their readings. To me, that acknowledges that different readers are going to vary in their meanings of at least some of the cards and that this is all still reading Lenormand.

 

[celticnoodle]

BRAVO GD!

I am in full agreement with you on this. Its good to read that someone else feels this same way about reading Lenormand in the way that feels right to them, like I do. I never really understood why some people would complain about the way a reader saw the cards meanings because it was not 'memorized from the Lenormand book', but then would tell readers the opposite when they are learning to read other oracles or tarot cards.

I think it is a good idea to read books on the meanings given to each card and consider that--but if you feel it means something else, then do listen to your gut instincts and go for it!

 

[DownUnderNZer]

Kind of goes against the grain for me as I learnt the traditional way first and definitely not by any book and then eventually when that lost its hold I found what I wanted which was a more direct way of using them. Through a lot of trial and error I adapted between the two, but some things I see with readers, especially new ones, really makes me cringe.

I do accept that some are learning and don't have hands on access person to person.

Like if someone asked something like: What is the likelihood of me moving in November?

Cards: Heart Man Whip Ship Sun

And the answer is:

OMG. You are going to meet a man and fall in love. I can see November, August or March. You are going to be so happy. Wait.....could even be in Summer. You may have arguments and even a raunchy time of it. Even travel. Maybe you will meet when travelling.

Drives me nuts!

Meant to be specific and to answer the question asked.

Changing card meanings is all it is, but it does not make it Lenormand. It is just a person taking a set of cards (could be any Oracle) and putting their own twist on them. Does not make it a right or wrong reading - just a set of Lenormand cards with a persons own interpretations of the imagery.

BTW: Mice are seen as "social", but the negative aspect is the destruction they bring bit by bit.

 

[greatdane]

DownUnderNZer

Everyone has the right to their opinion.

To me, reading Lenormand is reading with the standard symbols, having a deck with the standard images.

I am what I consider a traditional reader, but there IS more than one tradition. I checked out many different sources, but I have used slightly different meanings from different systems. To me, Lenormand is what it is to the reader.

You say through trial and error you adapted between the two....so...does that make you a totally traditional reader? I understand the difference between using A system (whichever one that is) and just reading totally intuitively, like having no set meanings for cards at all. I am not sure if you mean they should just follow whatever meanings you use or if they should follow A school or system or should just never use intuition?

I think if a reader sees one of the cards differently from "tradition" (and I have read MANY definitions from many "traditions", "schools"), they're still reading Lenormand as they are reading Lenormand images. You found your way, I found my way, I've watched many readers read and they don't ALL come up with the same meaning or result even when they may use the same descriptions for the cards. So if they don't come up with the same result, even if they use the same description, are they not reading Lenormand?

I just don't feel it is for me to say if their way of reading is any less "Lenormand" than mine, as even among traditional readers, some follow different traditions and as you said yourself, you adapted, found your own way (I did find studying various sources useful and then making it my own, perhaps our path wasn't so different).

Even though I follow basically what many consider traditional meanings, I see readers combining meanings from different schools, using meanings from one, styles, how they read layouts, from another. From the first part of your post, it sounds like you didn't just rigidly follow one structure or school and stay that way, you did what worked for you. But I want to make sure I understand. Are you suggesting that as long as a reader follows a system, you feel they're reading Lenormand, no matter which system, or are you saying they should follow THE system (and from everything I've seen or read, there is no ONE system, there is more than one, even with descriptions, some vary a little).

And BTW, I see loss, destruction, sometimes something stolen when I see the MICE. Mice may be social creatures, but when I read that card, I don't personally see socializing, my point in my first post, was that if someone else does see it that way, their way is no less valid than mine or vice versa.

I totally respect how you read. You have found your "tradition", I have found mine. I just think others should be allowed to decide for themselves what Lenormand is or isn't.

I wonder if we could watch Mlle. Lenormand read today, if all of us "traditional" readers would find her...traditional? It is something to ponder.

 

[DownUnderNZer]

I have a great respect for the two German ladies that taught me the "traditional" way - one was taught generation to generation, but her only child a son, had no interest.

I know not to mix the two....trad vs other, but only 5 or so cards are "different" really in meaning. And it could be German vs French in meaning.

I don't know as I was taught person to person and didn't even know it was called a Grand Tableux! No books were in English when I started out and I was put in the deep end.

Still have never looked at any of the schools and the meanings that you refer to and don't feel a need to venture there.

Trial and error really was with the no layout conflicting with the GT approach, also, smaller spreads which I still don't think are enough sometimes for a reading.

I think as long as you know the basics and have done the yards - anything is possible. But if you are talking about changing a cards entire meaning then that to me it is not Lenormand and that is what I thought you were talking about.

If there are slight variations that stay with the original - that is fine. That is me I think.

Like we would not be using a "rider on a horse to deliver messages" anymore, so it has to be brought up to the current time as in letters and information etc.

Each person has her/his own approach to reading. My concern would be when the question is not answered really or if the cards are completely changed in meaning with not even the basics in place. I mean a total change in a cards meaning which is what I thought you meant.

Is one readers reading less or more over another's? If it is not answering a question then to me it would be less, also, when a reader becomes "confused" or goes off in "different directions" (except general readings) something is amiss in the way s/he has learnt them.

So, yes, some are less and some are fine.

Everyone has the right to their opinion.

To me, reading Lenormand is reading with the standard symbols, having a deck with the standard images.

I am what I consider a traditional reader, but there IS more than one tradition. I checked out many different sources, but I have used slightly different meanings from different systems. To me, Lenormand is what it is to the reader.

You say through trial and error you adapted between the two....so...does that make you a totally traditional reader? I understand the difference between using A system (whichever one that is) and just reading totally intuitively, like having no set meanings for cards at all. I am not sure if you mean they should just follow whatever meanings you use or if they should follow A school or system or should just never use intuition?

I think if a reader sees one of the cards differently from "tradition" (and I have read MANY definitions from many "traditions", "schools"), they're still reading Lenormand as they are reading Lenormand images. You found your way, I found my way, I've watched many readers read and they don't ALL come up with the same meaning or result even when they may use the same descriptions for the cards. So if they don't come up with the same result, even if they use the same description, are they not reading Lenormand?

I just don't feel it is for me to say if their way of reading is any less "Lenormand" than mine, as even among traditional readers, some follow different traditions and as you said yourself, you adapted, found your own way (I did find studying various sources useful and then making it my own, perhaps our path wasn't so different).

Even though I follow basically what many consider traditional meanings, I see readers combining meanings from different schools, using meanings from one, styles, how they read layouts, from another. From the first part of your post, it sounds like you didn't just rigidly follow one structure or school and stay that way, you did what worked for you. But I want to make sure I understand. Are you suggesting that as long as a reader follows a system, you feel they're reading Lenormand, no matter which system, or are you saying they should follow THE system (and from everything I've seen or read, there is no ONE system, there is more than one, even with descriptions, some vary a little).

And BTW, I see loss, destruction, sometimes something stolen when I see the MICE. Mice may be social creatures, but when I read that card, I don't personally see socializing, my point in my first post, was that if someone else does see it that way, their way is no less valid than mine or vice versa.

I totally respect how you read. You have found your "tradition", I have found mine. I just think others should be allowed to decide for themselves what Lenormand is or isn't.

I wonder if we could watch Mlle. Lenormand read today, if all of us "traditional" readers would find her...traditional? It is something to ponder.

 

[greatdane]

Thank you for explaining your experience, DownUnderNZer

So from what I am understanding, if this correct, you were taught THEIR tradition, they had been taught, which since they were german, may have been the german tradition?

One of the points I was making is what IS the traditional? From what it seems you are saying, as long as you work with A tradition (and did you know there are more than just the French and German?) than you're a traditional reader? But I don't want to put words into your mouth here, just trying to understand.

I have found that even looking at several traditions or schools, many meanings are pretty close. Even without having looked at the meanings, I think mine would have been close because the images are pretty basic. But I have read others readings and sometimes I would have gotten what they did and sometimes I wouldn't have. I don't consider theirs less valid than mine. At some point, no matter how we may think we follow a system, we do have to use some interpretative skills. If I got the same cards in the same layout, but for different questions, I'm going to see something different.

I do think I get what you are saying and I think you got part of what I was saying. It was very helpful for me to look at various sources, I read descriptions including Ronia's Russian meanings (again, most of the meanings were quite close in the sources, a few varied), and then I figured out which of the meanings made sense to me.

I still believe that even if looking at the basic card meanings, a reader sees a certain card off the beaten path, that a card strongly seems something else to them when they read, they can use their meaning and still be reading Lenormand. I didn't personally know Mlle. Lenormand, she was a few years older than I was, but I would be curious what SHE would think about tradition and the cards and what she would think of what many of us think of as "Traditional" and if that was how she read. No matter how any of us read, wouldn't that be fabulous to have a chat with her?

 

[DownUnderNZer]

I wrote it too...as in wouldnt it be great to see what she thinks now if she was here. And it would.

Remembered also that one of the ladies that taught me had very strange expressions at times, but her English wasnt perfect. Both had different opinions on certains cards like the BEAR.

One saw it as masculine and the father and the other the mother or mothers side. The one with weaker English would often say "the snake in the belly of the mother" when reading the BEAR. The SNAKE card she saw as the other woman. But in reference to the BEAR she meant manipulation in a good way over family.

I took what sat right for me from them both.

 

[greatdane]

And in the end, DownUnderNZer

That seems best, to do exactly what you did, take what sat right with you. Kudos for understanding what the two were trying to tell you . For ME, less is more and I make it as easy and simple as I can, but as complex as I feel I need to. I have gathered from traditional sources, I guess depending on one's idea of tradition, but really, so many seem pretty much the same. The basic descriptions, or at least some of them, work for me for the cards. I notice some people use different takes on some of the cards, some use more, some fewer, but most Lenormand seem to at least know what the basic traditional descriptions are. It's which they choose to use or not use. I really enjoyed reading as much as possible, including Ronia's Russian meanings that she so nice posted in Lenormand here in AT. Yes, if we could only go back in time or bring Mlle. Lenormand forward, how wondrous and interesting that would be!

 

[Ryver]

Like if someone asked something like: What is the likelihood of me moving in November?

Cards: Heart Man Whip Ship Sun

And the answer is:

OMG. You are going to meet a man and fall in love. I can see November, August or March. You are going to be so happy. Wait.....could even be in Summer. You may have arguments and even a raunchy time of it. Even travel. Maybe you will meet when travelling.

Drives me nuts!

Meant to be specific and to answer the question asked.

Hahaha, this drives me nuts no matter what system or set of cards, stones, feathers, bones, etc are being yet it is also a challenge I still struggle to rise and stay above as a reader.