Changes to standard images...bother you much?

[greatdane]

I like a Lenormand card to have the symbol of the card easily visible, but what about CHANGING that image? Do you care if there is a pair of scissors for the SCYTHE? Do you care if the COFFIN is actually a coffin or can it be an urn or sarcophagus? In other words, how interchangeable do you think images should be and still be called Lenormand? IS there a standard Lenormand image in your mind? I recently called the Bieri Lenormand which I like very much. The SWORD did throw me for a moment as it is used in place of the WHIP/BROOM. I can read with this deck just fine, I read it like I read other Lenormands, no matter what the lwb says. But I was wondering, with all the Lenormands coming out, how much wiggle room do they have to "substitute" symbols as far as what you like? Obviously a designer can put in anything they wish, but for you, do you like variety (like scissors, axe, anything sharp for the SCYTHE) or do you like your Lenormand straight up with no twist?

 

[Ryver]

I'm too new to learning Lenormand to say it bothers me but I have noticed I have feelings or reactions to it at least.

To me, cards (of any system or deck) speak to the reader first and then sometimes to the observing querent second. I say this because this is how I view it and how I read with cards but don't expect that it's like that to everyone else. I once asked if different decks were read differently the way Tarot cards are and was relieved to get feedback that it was not like that. In spite of this, I have noticed that some changes in images do sometimes change the range of possible keywords. It is not nearly to the extend that I experience this in Tarot. Others might go with the same keywords for a card even if a slightly different symbol is used and in their case, it is my personal belief, that right cards will come up for them as they read them, not as another might read them.

I am starting to notice that the images sometimes speak literally to me in the sense of using a card to indicate something of the same shape so a full vs. crescent moon will also sometimes change the way The Moon cards comes up for me. There are other examples such as cross vs. crossing and a polar bear vs. other bears as the bear card.

I don't think I'm bothered by it with any of my decks but if it got more extreme I am not sure I would consider those decks as Lenormands. Since I'm trying to study Lenormand right now I'd avoid those.

Edited the next day to add:
After more thought and discussion, I think I have realized that I am a little more bothered by symbol changes than I thought. Ha! I love how sometimes a good discussion can help bring your feelings to the surface.

 

[greatdane]

You made some excellent points, Ryver

We're the readers, the cards are a tool. If I think of a certain card, like the Scythe, in a certain way and SCISSORS come up, I will still basically think of the definition of the SCYTHE. I base my description more on the question and the layout if I have a few descriptors for a card (for example, the LILIES can mean harmony/peace/innocence to me or they can mean a physical relationship or attraction, the question and layout will play into which I use).
You also mentioned being a beginner and that is why there are some decks I would recommend more for someone just learning. A deck like the Bieri, while I love it and read well with it, isn't one I would say might be the best for someone just beginning and wants a deck with more basic symbolism.

 

[Seraphina]

I'm just starting out on my Lenormand journey so for me as a complete beginner I want my Lenormand straight up with no twists... And to be honest even if I was a seasoned reader (hopefully one day I will be!) I would still want the symbols/emblems to be what they are traditionally meant to be, for example if I think scythe, I want the image to show a scythe and so on, I think that's what I would feel most comfortable with.

 

[greatdane]

I agree, Seraphina

When the images start going too astray, it no longer seems like Lenormand. Now, I do really like the Bieri Gypsy Lenormand even though they changed the WHIP/BROOM to SWORD, I can still read with it. I just really prefer Lenormand straight up without a twist. Fine to get creative with the style but I want a deck where each image is upfront and center. For example, in the Mystical Lenormand, another deck I really love, the RING shows two birds and my first thought was the BIRDS card, but then you see the RING with rays kind of emanating and ok, I get it, the RING. I also want the SCYTHE as I see it usually as a quick cut, but sometimes as harvesting the fruits of ones labors. Hard to see that as easily with a pair of scissors or another sharp object.

I think decks like the FLONZ VICTORIAN, where there is a simple, but elegant image of the symbol, is a great deck because it's just the reader and the image. I love all the Lenormand decks I have, and can read fine with all of them, but especially for beginners, I think the clearer, the better. So whether someone who has read a lot or a little, I don't want my Lenormand to be barely recognizable, or worse, unrecognizable, as a Lenormand. That one won't make it into my collection.

 

[Seraphina]

I have to say if I saw a sword in place of the whip/broom it would completely throw me, probably because I am a beginner but thinking about it it would probably still not make sense to me even if I was more knowledgable lol... In that particular deck GD, is the meaning different to the standard keywords for whip/broom? If not I don't see why a sword would be used?
I do understand that some decks are different symbolically especially the newer decks which are coming out, some cards look different image wise and even some of the titles are changed, another example is the enchanted Lenormand which I also have, the Cross card has been renamed and the image shows an old suspension bridge? Sorry, but I just do not get that at all.. But that's just me, like I said, no twists, give it to me straight up please lol

But..having said all that I will add that I do like some of the newer style decks that are clear, bright, colourful and concise without being cluttered, as long as they stick to the traditional symbols, i.e. Scythe is a scythe, coffin a coffin, etc,etc, and keeps the original titles, I can handle that!

 

[greatdane]

Ah Seraphina

I actually looked that one up in the lwb. I don't really use lwb's for Lenormand as I read the way I read, but when I didn't see any whip or broom or anything I thought remotely looked like that, but the Sword, yes, I can think of it as someone getting repeatedly hit by a sword and remember that, but to be honest, I prefer whip/broom, one or both, in a deck. This deck, the Bieri, is supposed to combine gypsy symbols with Lenormand, and so many decks add things beyond just the symbol, I'm ok with that...as long as the symbol is clear, which it is in most of the Bieri cards. But even with tarot, if it says it's RiderWaiteSmith based, I expect to be able to read the cards and see something that suggest what each card is. If something doesn't follow Lenormand pretty darn closely, I see it as an oracle. It's like calling a zebra a horse, it's a zebra, not a horse, so just call it a zebra, not a horsey with stripes.

 

[Seraphina]

I understand completely what your saying and totally agree... But getting back to this sword vs whip/broom lol, I couldn't associate that with the traditional meaning because I would see a sword as a sharp, cutting object, infact I would associate it more with a scythe! (But I'd rather see a scythe not a sword haha)
I was actually thinking the same thing as you GD, if it doesn't follow Lenormand closely than to me it's an oracle, for me personally the Lenormand symbol must be highly visible and should not be changed, otherwise how can you say it's a Lenormand??
Too much change in a Lenormand deck makes it visually an oracle using the Lenormand system in readings... I think I'm making sense and have put that across properly lol.. Of course this is my personal point of view that I'm just voicing, but I do feel strongly about it.

 

[greatdane]

Oh I agree with you, Seraphina

I made an allowance for the Bieri just because I like the deck and most of the symbols are clearly Lenormand (I don't go by it's lwb, I did look up the Sword just to see if they listed as about the same meaning). But I TOTALLY agree. I want to see the symbol, clearly. If I don't look at a card and the first thing I notice it that card's symbol, that's not a great sign. I also like the card to have an image that kind of go with the description. I like to see a Rider on horseback that looks like he's riding and bringing news quickly. I want the image to be clear even if the designer has their own style, all fine, but I want to look at a card and not have to guess what it is.

 

[celticnoodle]

I don't really read much with the Lenormand decks, but I do own a few. For me, I wouldn't really care that instead of having the scythe, there were a pair of scissors instead, or for the coffin, a picture of an urn or sarcophagus was pictured.

Though the Rider Waite deck is considered the traditional tarot deck--there are many different tarot decks out there, who have taken liberties in changing the way the individual cards are depicted.

I do think it is important to have a knowledge of what the individual cards accepted meanings are--but I try not to limit myself to only THAT meaning. Perhaps this is why it wouldn't bother me to see different images. I try to read the cards as the image portrays itself to me. I will keep in mind the accepted meaning--but sometimes even the accepted meaning is not valid as far as I am concerned--and so I go with what my intuition tells me. I don't like to be limited by a standard meaning only. For me, its important to allow my intuition to play a role in the readings I do--so no, it wouldn't bother me in the least. That said, I don't expect everyone to feel the same way about it. To each their own.