Tarot Association of the British Isles - courses

[le pendu]

If its a matter of money, Fulgour offers FREE certificates here and there is no system or programme involved, unless you count Adobe and/or Windows.

... and apparently they both are worth about as much... nothing (but one actually costs money).

 

[le pendu]

The issue here isn't about the program. I think everyone agrees that the more experience and education we get, the better.

The issue is about the certification.

 

[Major Tom]

Hi ribbitcat

Flat statement such as 'I disagree' or 'Oh no it isn't' do nothing to further a debate.

I do however find this incredibly revealing:

I'm not sure that this is actually the best course of action. Members, whether readers or not, have signed up to agree to TABI's ...principles ?, ethics etc, and therefore it would be preaching mostly to people that are not convertible. They agreed/liked what TABI stands for or they wouldn't have joined in the first place, d'you see, and why would they want to change that ?

Does TABI exist for its members or do members exist for TABI? If TABI members see a problem with the organisation don't they have a right and a resposibility to do something?

Hi Webwitch

Thanks for your rather detailed reply.

The mentor is there to give you an idea of how to frame a reading in line with TABI ethics, aims and guidelines So, a spelling error here, an ethical matter there (the removal of plagiarism as Ribbit mentioned). Is that training? I thought it was mentoring, i.e. giving members a level (of professionalism) to which to aspire.

Training arrives in a wide variety of packages. This sounds quite a lot of information for a mentor to communicate to a candidate. For me, mentoring is a form of training and perhaps even one of the best forms because it's on a one-to-one basis.

So, is that a training scheme or a mentoring scheme? Is that such a bad thing?

It is a training scheme and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's the use put to the certificates, as well as, the claims made about the scheme that are the problems.

 

[jmd]

As in the other threads that deal with endorsements and certification, whether it be TABI or TCB or its equivalents, it is not whether the mutual support, the promotion of tarot, or the value of courses is in any way being questioned.

Quite the contrary. And from my perspective, the mutual support that readers give each other within TABI, and the various courses that numerous people offer (whether or not under the auspices of any association, society, or other organisation), are all positive.

Also, the path taken by TABI with its endorsement and certificates is (in this case at least) paved with good intentions. This is not at issue, as far as I'm concerned.

Nor, even, is the commercial result the problem. One can also increase part of one's exposure by reading for other organisations.

The issue is far more straightforward.

What does endorsement and certification suggest to the public, a public that is increasingly used to, and subjected, to having every aspect of their lives regulated? It suggests that tarot readings can be regulated by having 'appropriate' certification.

Yet, I would suggest, no such appropriate certification exists!

It is in that sense that Major Tom, if I am reading his posts correctly, similarly suggests that TABI is doing harm. It is, as any and every other organisation that provides certification also does, promulgates publically a view that readings can indeed be certified.

I do not rely on my income from readings, and the few readings I do (over the past few years) have been, in the main, for fundraisings. It is not a commercial concern of competition (and in any case, would either flourish of sink rather quickly on my own reputation).

Again, this is not arguing against courses, mutual support (ie, 'mentors'), or indeed even against TABI organising events to which only its members are reading. Rather, it is the concept of endorsement and certification, as it is these that perpetuate misrepresentations of tarot readings - misrepresentations more insiduous than the flagrant misrepresentation of charlatans, for these latter can easily be seen for what they are (even if only after the fact).

As to ribbitcat's comment regarding whether we can all agree on a generalised statement (even if at first view 'obvious'), I beg to differ on the two thus far presented.

The first of these related to a series of cards that included ribbitcat's suggestion that one could not interpret it in a presented manner (that I answered by showing how one could indeed see it in the manner suggested: see post 21 in the thread UK Article link - in fact, I would recommend another reading of THAT whole thread too!).

Above, ribbitcat suggests that, and I quote:

"who would not agree that to tell a querent that they're going to die within the next three months (say) is unacceptable ?"​

I would honestly say that it entirely depends on the situation at hand, and the manner in which it arises and is discussed. Something that no code can ever capture!

 

[ribbitcat]

... and apparently they both are worth about as much... nothing (but one actually costs money).

LOL Le Pendu -

You have no idea what you're talking about. You may not have understood the endorsement process as it has been outlined previously in this thread, and certainly you have not undergone it. It is not the rubber-stamp process you seem to think it is.

The endorsement/mentoring process is available as a *benefit* of membership, rather than someone paying to become endorsed. Not all choose to utilize it.(figures quoted earlier somewhere in this thread) The membership costs money (membership has other benefits that may have influenced people's decision to join) but the endorsement process is free. Both the mentor and mentee put in considerable time and effort (the one-on-one aspect that Major Tom mistakenly refers to as training ;-) and why on earth should TABI make this available to non-members ?? The beginner's course it offers is free to all, links and reader resumes can be put on its website for free (even if you're not a member), it offers free readings though its website - would you like to see everything TABI does simply handed to people on a free plate ? Why ?

ribbit

 

[ribbitcat]

The issue here isn't about the program. I think everyone agrees that the more experience and education we get, the better.

The issue is about the certification.

As has been explained, endorsement is not certification. A *certificate* is awarded upon successful completion of the process. Not the same thing.

ribbit

 

[ribbitcat]

Hi Major Tom

Hi ribbitcat

Flat statement such as 'I disagree' or 'Oh no it isn't' do nothing to further a debate.

Oh my Lord ! Two agreements in 2 days LOL I agree with you. However, further repetition of my arguments against your specific points, both here and in other threads, would begin to bore *me*, let alone anyone else

I do however find this incredibly revealing:



Does TABI exist for its members or do members exist for TABI? If TABI members see a problem with the organisation don't they have a right and a resposibility to do something?

<<faints in shock at yet *another* agreement>>

Yes, you are absolutely right. Two problems with that though - no-one seems to be unhappy with the endorsement process, quite the reverse; secondly, someone being unhappy with aforesaid process would then have to *say* so. And as is usual when people feel criticized and/or are pushed out of their comfort zone, that objector might have to pay a social (?) price, ie. those who upset the applecart end up buried under it. This has happened and continues to happen now and then in several tarot communities, TABI would not be unique if the membership reacted this way.

As with most groups, there's a huge silent majority that never say anything about anything - personally, I have wondered publicly why they joined TABI - what do they get from it, what do they want from it ? Getting any of this majority to do *anything*, in my *personal* experience, takes a large stack of dynamite placed to their collective posteriors. And usually there are casualties in the fallout. So then one can presume - since they don't say - that they are relatively happy with the current status of things.

It is a training scheme and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's the use put to the certificates, as well as, the claims made about the scheme that are the problems.

So you object if I choose to use mine for a paper aeroplane ? Or some form of origami (I'm rather handy at making a fish)? In effect, you'd like to regulate *my* use of *my* certificate ? LOL

ribbit

 

[ribbitcat]

The issue is far more straightforward.


Yet, I would suggest, no such appropriate certification exists!

It is in that sense that Major Tom, if I am reading his posts correctly, similarly suggests that TABI is doing harm. It is, as any and every other organisation that provides certification also does, promulgates publically a view that readings can indeed be certified.

Hi JMD

OK, then, let's change the angle of the discussion somewhat, make it a bit more positive.

How can one tell if a reader is any good ?
How do *you* personally define a terrible/bad/good/decent/excellent reader ?

If tarot is an art (don't take up *that* debate here, please! LOL) then align it with other arts, maybe. How does one know that a piece of art is any good ? Generally speaking, say, most people would agree that van Gogh is a great artist. What is that judgment based on ? Most would also agree that, say, Picasso is a great artist, while being totally different to van Gogh. So what measure has been used to put these two artists into the same "great" category ?

ribbit

 

[Major Tom]

However, further repetition of my arguments against your specific points, both here and in other threads, would begin to bore *me*, let alone anyone else

If you get bored you can withdraw from the debate.

no-one seems to be unhappy with the endorsement process,

As with most groups, there's a huge silent majority that never say anything about anything

I do wonder if you see any contradiction?

How do you know no one is unhappy with the endorsement process?

I certainly am.

It is in that sense that Major Tom, if I am reading his posts correctly, similarly suggests that TABI is doing harm. It is, as any and every other organisation that provides certification also does, promulgates publically a view that readings can indeed be certified.

Thanks for saying it better than I have.

How can one tell if a reader is any good ?
How do *you* personally define a terrible/bad/good/decent/excellent reader ?

Hurrah!

I tell by how they prosper or by what their clients say about them to other people.

Most of the time these days I can tell just by looking and talking.

There is no objective criteria, it is entirely subjective, as is every great art.

 

[Macavity]

O.K. This is what I REALLY think. The thread was productive, while it focussed on sharing personal experiences (both positive and negative!) re. TABI. Once we get into quoting-stuff-from-subscriber-threads and, despite preemptive apologies for (variously) "intrusion", "seeming threatening" and "liking people", the thread took a bit of a downturn. Overall I see this as a group advocacy spat.

If you don't like "endorsement", join (I forget the group's name). Or join TABI and, if you STILL don't like it, (indeed) change things, resign etc. As someone on the periphery of Tarot I STILL haven't sussed it out. Is it not possible to accommodate BOTH sides of an argument re. "certification" etc. Personally, I have never come across an occasion when I need tell folk they are "spreading a falsehood" etc. I might have my unspoken opinion, but that is different...

Re. the "more serious threat": Sure, it is possible that some "hostile government" might have a big "downer" on Taroists, but I think there is (in secular UK) enough hysteria re. teenagers, "ASBO"s etc. to keep any government and worried tabloid readers occupied (sorry for the decent into politics)! Re. Taroists telling folk they're going to die, I have personal problems with that under ANY circumstance. To me, as part-carer for an (ulitimately) successful suicidal parent, I feel implanting such ideas into the mind of another might be a bad idea...

On the brighter side, "Le pendu" - If you think the qualifications of Physicists (scientists in general) are respected on Tarot forums, see the "Alphabet and Kaballah" forums. I had thought of making a contribution myself, but then I thought...