WolfyJames
cirom said:
Could you give more details about that? I'm planning to buy an inkjet printer and I would use it to print my deck. What kind of paper do you use? What is the lamination? And what did you do about front and back issue?
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to publish or self publish
Could you give more details about that? I'm planning to buy an inkjet printer and I would use it to print my deck. What kind of paper do you use? What is the lamination? And what did you do about front and back issue?
cirom
The inkjet I refered to namely the Epson 2200, is my current printer of choice. I believe its around the $600 range. There are various special papers that Epson produces that give excellent results i.e. watercolor textured, Matt, and my favourite Premium Luster, which has a semi gloss finish. This is the paper I use to out put my illustrations, and the special edition Gilded Tarot deck. This costs about $2 per sheet 13x19inches. However you must realize that these special coated papers are only coated on one side, hence something that requires a front and back by default (i.e. a tarot card) needs two sheets. These then have to be lined up very accurately prior to trimming. In my case the size of the cards (dictated initially by Llewellyn who will be using the same artwork) means that I needed 7 sheets to produce the 78 fronts, and 7 sheets for the reverse. Then you must use a strong adhesive to bond the two sides. The cold lamination process uses a thin 3mm adhesive laminate sheet, which when trimmed does not need an overlap (such as say an driving license or id card) it can be trimmed flush with the end of the card. I chose a satin finish so that the imagery of the cards themeselves was not distarcted by reflections from a glossy surface. The fact that the procees doesn't require heat avoids the risk of warping. Hope that helps.
By the way don't think that I'm promoting Epson in any way, ironically Xerox are using my illustrations to promote their new line of printers, its just that I've been using Epson for some time, I calibrated my equipment so that I get predictable output so its just a personal comfort level, not an endorsement.
By the way don't think that I'm promoting Epson in any way, ironically Xerox are using my illustrations to promote their new line of printers, its just that I've been using Epson for some time, I calibrated my equipment so that I get predictable output so its just a personal comfort level, not an endorsement.
baba-prague
We use a very similar Epson printer (sadly considerably more than $600 here - the prices here tend to be higher) and it is really good.
We aren't planning to print our own cards on it, but we do use it to do prints. I'd agree that with the right paper it gives very high quality. I'm not endorsing Epson either by the way, but any printer of this type will probably give good results. Until this year we had been using a much older printer - but the technology has improved so much that the newer printers really are a bit of a revelation, and worth the expense if you can stretch to it.
We aren't planning to print our own cards on it, but we do use it to do prints. I'd agree that with the right paper it gives very high quality. I'm not endorsing Epson either by the way, but any printer of this type will probably give good results. Until this year we had been using a much older printer - but the technology has improved so much that the newer printers really are a bit of a revelation, and worth the expense if you can stretch to it.
WolfyJames
Nah, I'm not planning to buy a printer like that, and that much expensive. Actually, I'm planning to buy this printer: Hewlett-Packard DeskJet 5550. It's affordable and I've read many good reviews about it.
My deck is purely for personal purpuse so I'm planning to use the printer I'm going to buy to print the deck. I'm still at loss for the rest like what kind of paper to use, what about the back. I've read many good informations in this forum about this.
What sort of strong adhesive and cold laminating process did you use?
My deck is purely for personal purpuse so I'm planning to use the printer I'm going to buy to print the deck. I'm still at loss for the rest like what kind of paper to use, what about the back. I've read many good informations in this forum about this.
What sort of strong adhesive and cold laminating process did you use?
Nevada
HudsonGray said:You try to get them in stores where people can see your deck to buy it--the larger chain bookstores are not likely to carry them due to the way they only order from established companies, so look to the smaller independently owned new age or book stores.
You are responsible for the second printing if you need it & packaging, also the booklet updates.
Chain bookstores and nearly all smaller bookstores purchase most of their books via distributors. The two main distributors in the US are
Ingram Book Group -- http://www.ingrambookgroup.com
Baker & Taylor -- http://www.btol.com/
Please research this yourself--I'm not positive that my information is up to date--but if memory serves, if you're self publishing you can get listed with these distributors if you have an ISBN, an IPC barcode and have your item listed in Books In Print. They may have a set-up fee.
ISBNs are available from Bowker -- http://www.bowker.com/bowkerWeb/
Mind you, I'm coming from a book background, but you might want to look at some of the better books on self-publishing. A lot of what works for self publishing of books should work as well for self publishing of Tarot decks.
The distributor takes a big cut, but they can also make it much easier to get your item into the stores. Then you can also list at places like Amazon--but you can get listed there without a distributor as long as you have the ISBN and barcode and open an account there as a publisher.
Hope this helps.
Nevada
HudsonGray
And don't forget to copyright your deck with the appropriate government office! VERY important!
Lee
Not too long ago I was researching the possibility of independently publishing a deck (not mine, someone else's), and I decided not to, mainly because of what you have to go through to get a deck distributed through distributors.
This is what I remember from my research at the time, and I may not have correctly understood it, and I didn't end up doing it so perhaps there are nuances I didn't grasp, but here's how I understand it: when you place your deck or book with a distributor, the deck, so to speak, is stacked against you. You must pay to ship the deck to the distributor. Then, the distributor only pays you for product which they put into bookstores and which the bookstores sell. So, if the bookstores don't sell the decks and return them to the distributor, the distributor returns them to you, and you make no money, in fact you lose money because you've paid to ship them to the distributor. And it's even worse with decks than with books, because decks have more of a potential to get ruined on the shelves. The returns you get will have sat around on the bookstores' shelves for many months, getting beat up, torn open, etc., so once you get them returned, you may not be able to sell them again, so that's more money out of your pocket.
There is a distributor, if I recall correctly its name is New Leaf or something like that, which specializes in New Age products like decks. But their terms were particularly draconian. The distributors seem to have everything arranged so that they bear none of the risk and the publisher bears all the risk. It was this that led me to abandon my publishing plans.
I second Nevada34's suggestion that anyone interested in self-publishing should go and buy a book about it (there are several available on Amazon) and see what's involved before going any further.
-- Lee
This is what I remember from my research at the time, and I may not have correctly understood it, and I didn't end up doing it so perhaps there are nuances I didn't grasp, but here's how I understand it: when you place your deck or book with a distributor, the deck, so to speak, is stacked against you. You must pay to ship the deck to the distributor. Then, the distributor only pays you for product which they put into bookstores and which the bookstores sell. So, if the bookstores don't sell the decks and return them to the distributor, the distributor returns them to you, and you make no money, in fact you lose money because you've paid to ship them to the distributor. And it's even worse with decks than with books, because decks have more of a potential to get ruined on the shelves. The returns you get will have sat around on the bookstores' shelves for many months, getting beat up, torn open, etc., so once you get them returned, you may not be able to sell them again, so that's more money out of your pocket.
There is a distributor, if I recall correctly its name is New Leaf or something like that, which specializes in New Age products like decks. But their terms were particularly draconian. The distributors seem to have everything arranged so that they bear none of the risk and the publisher bears all the risk. It was this that led me to abandon my publishing plans.
I second Nevada34's suggestion that anyone interested in self-publishing should go and buy a book about it (there are several available on Amazon) and see what's involved before going any further.
-- Lee
HudsonGray
I sold things on consignment in retail stores for a while & had the same thing--you have no control over damaged merchandise, you've got to take it back if it doesn't sell.
Going the distributor route is just as bad. But that's if you try using distributors. There are plenty of people who do the whole thing themselves. I know two artists who sold their own deck to stores in small quantities (small, independantly owned stores, not the chains). That worked ok for them, though they had to price it at a 40% discount. My aunt & uncle self published 3 different childrens books & had those printed up for them. They did book signings & sold via the local stores, but still have a closet full of them after 10 years (though they moved 3/4 of the printings).
Don't write it off automatically, there's always a market for self published things. The internet only makes it easier to reach the masses, if you network right & get yourself noticed in the right places. It's no longer limited to the standard media trail of the past 40 years.
Going the distributor route is just as bad. But that's if you try using distributors. There are plenty of people who do the whole thing themselves. I know two artists who sold their own deck to stores in small quantities (small, independantly owned stores, not the chains). That worked ok for them, though they had to price it at a 40% discount. My aunt & uncle self published 3 different childrens books & had those printed up for them. They did book signings & sold via the local stores, but still have a closet full of them after 10 years (though they moved 3/4 of the printings).
Don't write it off automatically, there's always a market for self published things. The internet only makes it easier to reach the masses, if you network right & get yourself noticed in the right places. It's no longer limited to the standard media trail of the past 40 years.
baba-prague
distribution - pros and cons
We've done a lot of research on finding the right distributor. First thing to say is that it is hard to find any distributor for a first publication. Distribution is very competitive right now (several good distributors have recently gone out of business in the US) and it is disproportionately expensive for a distributor to take on a single publication - they have to set everything up just as they would for a publisher with dozens of books. A lot of them will say no on principle to any first publication.
However, after a fair bit of effort, we were very lucky and found a distributor we like (we got more than one offer in the end - so we really were fortunate). Even so, everything Lee says is correct - especially about the dreaded "returns". In fact our distributor said that one thing you have to be careful of as a very small publisher is the distributor who asks you to reprint within the first few months. They said that this seems fabulous to a new publisher - so they go off and reprint thousands - the distributor puts it in the shops, but then six months later everything is returned - with huge financial loss. One thing I liked about our distributor (apart from the fact that a very good established small press in Prague uses them and speaks highly of them) is that they told us this and said we shouldn't reprint (no matter what the pressures) until we actually know that shops are selling the decks - not just taking them and putting them on shelves. This seemed good, honest advice. In any case, if we reprint we will do a whole different second edition - so it's quite an undertaking.
So what I'm advising is that if you decide to go the distributor route, firstly be prepared for a long haul in finding a distributor THEN (in spite of this) don't just go for the first one that offers. The distributor/publisher relationship is potentially a difficult one - but can also be very helpful on both sides. Be prepared to look for someone who you feel is willing to give sound advice - and preferably someone with whom you have something in common too.
Oh by the way, everything I am saying applies to the US. We also have a Czech distributor (and distribute direct to some shops here ourselves) and that works differently - but I guess is totally irrelevant to people on this thread!
We've done a lot of research on finding the right distributor. First thing to say is that it is hard to find any distributor for a first publication. Distribution is very competitive right now (several good distributors have recently gone out of business in the US) and it is disproportionately expensive for a distributor to take on a single publication - they have to set everything up just as they would for a publisher with dozens of books. A lot of them will say no on principle to any first publication.
However, after a fair bit of effort, we were very lucky and found a distributor we like (we got more than one offer in the end - so we really were fortunate). Even so, everything Lee says is correct - especially about the dreaded "returns". In fact our distributor said that one thing you have to be careful of as a very small publisher is the distributor who asks you to reprint within the first few months. They said that this seems fabulous to a new publisher - so they go off and reprint thousands - the distributor puts it in the shops, but then six months later everything is returned - with huge financial loss. One thing I liked about our distributor (apart from the fact that a very good established small press in Prague uses them and speaks highly of them) is that they told us this and said we shouldn't reprint (no matter what the pressures) until we actually know that shops are selling the decks - not just taking them and putting them on shelves. This seemed good, honest advice. In any case, if we reprint we will do a whole different second edition - so it's quite an undertaking.
So what I'm advising is that if you decide to go the distributor route, firstly be prepared for a long haul in finding a distributor THEN (in spite of this) don't just go for the first one that offers. The distributor/publisher relationship is potentially a difficult one - but can also be very helpful on both sides. Be prepared to look for someone who you feel is willing to give sound advice - and preferably someone with whom you have something in common too.
Oh by the way, everything I am saying applies to the US. We also have a Czech distributor (and distribute direct to some shops here ourselves) and that works differently - but I guess is totally irrelevant to people on this thread!
Lee
Re: distribution - pros and cons
Marketing to small bookstores doesn't seem to be a very promising option. Selling via the Internet is very attractive because you don't have to pay a distributor or spend lots of time marketing to individual stores, but then you're restricting your customer base to the on-line Tarot community, and it may take a long, long time to sell those thousands of decks you're storing in your closet.
I think it's still possible to self-publish successfully, but only if (a) you have a product which you really, truly believe in, enough to take some risks for, and (b) you fully inform yourself about the business side of things before you embark on it, so that you can make sound choices about how to proceed (for instance, do you want to try to get as much exposure and sales as possible, even if you don't make as much money on each sale, or do you want to sell over the Internet and keep more of the profits, which entails being prepared to wait a long time (if ever) before making back your investment).
Baba-prague seems to have navigated these waters with particular acumen, and I wish her the best of luck with future sales of the deck. She's certainly off to a great start.
Arnell Ando, who did the Transformational Tarot, has written that after a lot of expense and time and effort, she basically broke even on her deck. She said she's still glad she did it, but her experience is certainly something to think about for anyone considering it.
-- Lee
This brings up another good point which I should have mentioned. The whole publishing system (at least in my very limited exposure to it) seems to be geared toward the publisher of several titles. There are so many incidental costs that add up (as Marie pointed out) that it is really difficult for the single-title publisher to make the whole project profitable without having several titles (which helps dilute some of those costs per title, for example it may not cost much more to ship 1,000 copies each of five different titles than it does to ship 1,000 copies of one title).baba-prague said:[...]and it is disproportionately expensive for a distributor to take on a single publication - they have to set everything up just as they would for a publisher with dozens of books.
Marketing to small bookstores doesn't seem to be a very promising option. Selling via the Internet is very attractive because you don't have to pay a distributor or spend lots of time marketing to individual stores, but then you're restricting your customer base to the on-line Tarot community, and it may take a long, long time to sell those thousands of decks you're storing in your closet.
I think it's still possible to self-publish successfully, but only if (a) you have a product which you really, truly believe in, enough to take some risks for, and (b) you fully inform yourself about the business side of things before you embark on it, so that you can make sound choices about how to proceed (for instance, do you want to try to get as much exposure and sales as possible, even if you don't make as much money on each sale, or do you want to sell over the Internet and keep more of the profits, which entails being prepared to wait a long time (if ever) before making back your investment).
Baba-prague seems to have navigated these waters with particular acumen, and I wish her the best of luck with future sales of the deck. She's certainly off to a great start.
Arnell Ando, who did the Transformational Tarot, has written that after a lot of expense and time and effort, she basically broke even on her deck. She said she's still glad she did it, but her experience is certainly something to think about for anyone considering it.
-- Lee
