Does astrology really fit tarot?

[ravenest]

It's beautiful
Should I be putting my signs on the cusps instead of plonking them in the middle?
And your carpet is so much fluffier and cleaner than mine

Re meta discussion- I noticed that too! I'm definitely a big picture first person. But I have no idea what gender ravenest is.

Me .... I am a Gemini ( there is two of us )

" O glorious stars,

O light impregnated

With mighty virtue, from which I acknowledge

All of my genius, whatsoever it be;

To them I owe, to them alone I owe,

What of the seas, or of the stars, I know. "

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Meta and perhaps off topic, but interesting observation of this whole thread:

All the participants in the discussion that identify as male are either searching for, or outlining the mechanics of discrete systems, and angsting about points that do not have direct, logical one-to-one correspondences.

The participants that identify as female appear to be less invested in one-to-one corespondences, and dismiss theoretical conflict under the heading "if it doesn't work for me, I don't use it."

Neither approach has any more or less merit. I just find it fascinating.

I am not sure if your observation is entirely accurate. I for one strongly emphasized earlier on this thread that I advocate combining the theoretical and empirical/intuitive approaches to Tarot.

For the record: Ravenest is a male webra jali yulladhurra nungarn Gumbaynggirr / Bundjalung.

 

[Zephyros]

I am not sure if your observation is entirely accurate. I for one strongly emphasized earlier on this thread that I advocate combining the theoretical and empirical/intuitive approaches to Tarot.

For the record: Ravenest is a male webra jali yulladhurra nungarn Gumbaynggirr / Bundjalung.

I agree. Besides, even my approach isn't completely cerebral, I merely use the structural approach as a conduit to the emotional/intuitive approach, as evidenced by what was called "dizzying" flights of fancy by some.

I find it very telling that when Crowley lays out the steps to the Opening of the Key in the Book of Thoth, when he gets to the part describing the actual reading, all he says about it is "tell a story."

...but the Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry

I enjoy flights of fancy very much.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Yep. And people that want an exact or perfect fit between one system and another are not going to find it, otherwise they would be the same system viewed from the same perspective.

Its a bit like closing one eye and going 'Hey ! Wait a minute, what I see out of the left is a bit different from the right! " But put them both together .

They have to have a different perspective of 'the one' ... otherwise they would be the same thing ... and lacking 'depth of vision'.

Well said. If Tarot and Astrology could be overlaid 1:1 they would indeed be the same system.

For the same reason, I also doubt that Tarot is simply an illustration of the Kabbalah, as some people assume. Meaningful correlations can be made, but the problems start with there again being several schools of thinking, the French and the Golden Dawn traditions being the most prominent ones - they both have good arguments in support of their views.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

I was seeing this as I read through the last few posts. What I have been setting out in the astro tarot layout is static, its more about understanding models and the extent to which they can fit. Although, for best overall purposes one would use a 'natural horoscope' . One can also use the specific time and date layout that the layout is used on , or for( good for a group exercise), or for a 'static' card natal layout.

As far as a shuffle 'reading ' layout goes ( which seems to suggest the astrological transit charts ? ) , I use a different system. The model 'positions; become the places the cards are dealt to.

I do this by converting a chart onto an astro/psychological model - which is a standard model for all but changes according to natal aspects that make 'good or bad' psychological pathways. Then I deal out cards as a reading onto those places that also hold the astrological aspects.

If that makes sense ?

[Eg. part of the model includes a Venus, Mars, Mercury triangle around the Moon ( unconscious and the 3 primary drives of psychology) , linked to the Sun ( conscious mind ) via Mercury at the apex. So the triangular line between the Venus and Mercury position can be an aspect in a chart (lets say, a 'difficult' trine ) any cards dealt on those points, or the lines joining them might describe or outline the energies, ways of dealing with them or how, at this time they are operating, and how best to deal with that.

I have only scratched the surface with this and have not correlated any such readings with actual astrological transits, ..... { thats more for researchers like Michael Steinbach } ]

I like your model which you have written about a number of times, but it's still unclear to me where you are placing the Sun, Jupiter, Saturn and the outers.

 

[Barleywine]

What I have been setting out in the astro tarot layout is static, its more about understanding models and the extent to which they can fit. Although, for best overall purposes one would use a 'natural horoscope' . One can also use the specific time and date layout that the layout is used on , or for( good for a group exercise), or for a 'static' card natal layout.

As far as a shuffle 'reading ' layout goes ( which seems to suggest the astrological transit charts ? ) , I use a different system. The model 'positions; become the places the cards are dealt to.

I do this by converting a chart onto an astro/psychological model - which is a standard model for all but changes according to natal aspects that make 'good or bad' psychological pathways. Then I deal out cards as a reading onto those places that also hold the astrological aspects.

If that makes sense ?

I have only scratched the surface with this and have not correlated any such readings with actual astrological transits, ..... { thats more for researchers like Michael Steinbach } ]

I'm delighted with the "static" model of my birthchart derived from using this approach. In practical readings with it, since I know all of the aspects so well, I will just keep them in mind as I deal out cards into the 12 astrological houses, and blend the meanings of the two (or more) cards at both "ends" of each aspect (transiting and natal) into the overall sign/house/planet combined interpretation. Since I'm using traditional astrological principles, transiting aspects will be by whole sign only, not by actual degree, so I will assume that the "moving" card is in the decan that represents an exact aspect to the "static" natal one; thus, the decan cards can be brought into play as well.

Rather than leaving the giant layout on the floor for future use, I decided to capture the picture of it I took as background "wallpaper" on my 28" monitor, and just lay out the circle of 12 "reading" cards on the desktop in front of me. I think I'll still need a mini or pocket deck to do that efficiently, though.

ETA: Another option would be to deal out the whole deck as in the second operation of the OOTK, and then find which house the Significator falls in as a way of showing what area of life the reading will be most relevant to. I wouldn't do any pairing-and-counting, just treat the sign/house/planet/aspect blend of meanings for that house as most significant.

 

[ravenest]

For the record: Ravenest is a male webra jali yulladhurra nungarn Gumbaynggirr / Bundjalung.

Jingi walla cuz - boogelbear !

 

[ravenest]

I like your model which you have written about a number of times, but it's still unclear to me where you are placing the Sun, Jupiter, Saturn and the outers.

..... Uranus

Pluto ...... Neptune


........ (Chiron )
Saturn | ... | Jupiter { 'gateway' ... 'valve' }


.......... ...Sun


.......... Mercury


...........Moon

Mars ................ Venus


...... (personna )

............|
............|

(Earth / environment )

[Sorry, low tech, I have never been able (nor have the equipment) to paste pics of it - its all hand drawn - like some of my charts - painted with colours or silver on matt black impress paper , or even collaged (space pics background with planetary photographs pasted on - a friend , who is a MUCH better artist than me, paints a chart as a landscape ... with colours and symbols and themes from the chart (eg; Sun rays penetrating a deep Piscean ocean where King Neptune plays with 2 dolphins in one section, fading into a night sky with the Moon in natal phase, stuff like that ) ... they are pretty good.

In my drawn model, lines intersect and divide , join and overlap sections to show dynamics of Superego, Ego, 'self' , unconscious, Id, personna, etc .... It also extends upwards into 'trinitarian principles' to do with astro / sub-atomic physics, 'Nuit and Hadit' and such things]

 

[DiamondsRForever]

Astro/Tarot

I don't know if I believe that astrology really fits tarot. It is like 50/50. It depends on what the reading is about. Most times, I associate the elements when pulling for a specific person in a reading. I will often times find that a fire sign will align with one of the wands court cards, etc etc. I do not believe that each component of the court cards in respect to one element specifically represents an exact zodiac sign. It also goes by the energies dominating that person's chart. For example, I am a Virgo, but my chart is primarily filled with Leo. It is not unusual for me to see myself come up as the Queen or Page of Wands. I believe that whether you pull King/Queen/Knight/Page depends on your current position in life and in the situation.

As for the majors, it's once again, hit or miss. My ex boyfriend was an Aquarius and sometimes his significator would come up as The Star. It's so difficult to tell, though. I would say that the majors represent energies more than zodiac signs, even though they are the only ones marked with zodiac signs. The majors take on the energies of a particular sign/house and how they apply to the reading.

But then again, everyone reads differently. I've had a reading once where the person didn't associate court cards with zodiac signs at all. For example, she associated my cheating boyfriend as seeing the other woman as the Queen of Wands (as the woman he's more attracted to) and me as the Queen of Swords (as the woman who he's not attracted to and has cold feelings toward.)

 

[Barleywine]

I don't know if I believe that astrology really fits tarot. It is like 50/50. It depends on what the reading is about. Most times, I associate the elements when pulling for a specific person in a reading. I will often times find that a fire sign will align with one of the wands court cards, etc etc. I do not believe that each component of the court cards in respect to one element specifically represents an exact zodiac sign. It also goes by the energies dominating that person's chart. For example, I am a Virgo, but my chart is primarily filled with Leo. It is not unusual for me to see myself come up as the Queen or Page of Wands. I believe that whether you pull King/Queen/Knight/Page depends on your current position in life and in the situation.

As for the majors, it's once again, hit or miss. My ex boyfriend was an Aquarius and sometimes his significator would come up as The Star. It's so difficult to tell, though. I would say that the majors represent energies more than zodiac signs, even though they are the only ones marked with zodiac signs. The majors take on the energies of a particular sign/house and how they apply to the reading.

But then again, everyone reads differently. I've had a reading once where the person didn't associate court cards with zodiac signs at all. For example, she associated my cheating boyfriend as seeing the other woman as the Queen of Wands (as the woman he's more attracted to) and me as the Queen of Swords (as the woman who he's not attracted to and has cold feelings toward.)

When it comes down to practical reading. I agree. The astrological associations make for an interesting and useful "model" for tying tarot and astrology neatly together (there really are no "gaps," at least in the Golden Dawn system), but their value in reading is mostly subsidiary to the core meaning of the cards. I too start with elements (and also planetary numbers - according to the Tree of Life arrangement, not numerology). I seldom have to get down to minor-card decans, although the nature of the court cards is sometimes fleshed out in a meaningful way by their connection to the decans (or at least the two of the same element as the card itself). The astrological signatures of the court cards as personality types or psychological profiles is marginal at best, but then I seldom use psychological overlays in tarot anyway; I'm more interested in actions. The signs and planets associated with the Trumps can add depth to the interpretation (for example, Mars and the Tower, or Leo and Strength), but some assignments take considerable thought to work out. For everyday use, it probably isn't critical to do so.