Motherpeace---do you use it?

pumog

I've been thinking a lot about it lately as I do love the deck. That's even though I don't really like how there aren't really any positive depictions of men in it. Or very few if any. Other than that I like everything about it. I believe it was the first round deck, so very innovative, and I love how one can interpret tilted cards as either over active/aggressive or too passive etc. I took that into my rune readings too. Also the artwork - although it is a bit clunky I've seen much worse and some of the imagery is very beautiful. Like it or not the sincerity shines through. Also I get nostalgia when I look at it for the 1980s, when there was a bit of a magical 1960s type feeling of freedom and anything being possible, especially creatively. I'm always surprised some of these older decks fall off the radar as much as they do.
 

Grizabella

I don't get "man-hating" at all in the deck. I get that men want to characterize it that way, but I don't get that for myself, no matter how hard I look. The Hierophant with boobs is a depiction of the patriarchal system coming into being and there being an effort to appeal to women, just like when the Christians incorporated elements of paganism into Christianity to win followers away from pagan beliefs. Easter being the god having risen, which was pagan, and many other things like that.

Just because the deck is created stressing the matriarchal spiritual beliefs doesn't mean men are hated. After all, without men, humans would quickly become extinct.

Feminizing men? Well, tarotbear, my dear, I've seen you in your kilt, don't forget. :p The Shaman of Wands is wearing what looks like a skirt, but clothing doesn't obscure or obliterate that a man is a man is a man. The 2 of Cups depicts a mer-man and a mer-woman sealing their bond to each other. The Fool is a man and so is the Hierophant. There are babies depicted, so there are obviously men involved sexually. In the 6 of Discs a woman is lovingly touching a man and giving him a massage. The Ace of Cups seems to be a man. The 9 of Swords depicts men. The Shaman of Cups is a man. A feminist deck is no more man-hating than a gay man's deck is female-hating.

The Motherpeace deck is a deck that simply celebrates woman-hood and respects that. It's pointing back in history to the matriarchal systems that pre-date the patriarchal system. There's nothing wrong with that.

This deck was created back when there were no laws to protect women from abuse by their spouses. It was almost accepted that beating your wife and kids was a man's duty, almost. (Ask me---I grew up then) Only in the 80's did shelters for women come about and domestic abuse become a real crime. This deck came into being during that time when women not only were seen as a man's property, but they had no real legal recourse to escape abuse. The Motherpeace Tarot deck is a reflection of that time when the tide was turning in favor of women and kids having some protection from abuse and some self-esteem restored and another step was made toward equality in all areas. There's nothing man-hating about that.

Sometimes I wonder if people who call Motherpeace a "man hater" deck aren't bordering on being woman-haters. Honestly.

And it's true that men are more physically aggressive by nature than women are, and are more prone to fight than women are. The saying that men are inclined to war and women to peace isn't a man-hating statement. It's a simple fact. It's a generalization, granted, but it's well-deserved if you look at the history of the world and its wars.

Coming back to add that, in 1976 when I divorced my first husband, the person seeking the divorce had to prove to the judge that they should be granted the divorce. If not, then the judge would say, "Sorry, go kiss and make up and make the best of it." Women were expected to produce proof---and I mean up in your face proof like catching the guy in bed and standing by the bed taking a picture of it to show to the judge---in order to be granted the divorce. He beats me held no weight as long as the guy was bringing home the bacon and behaving like a man otherwise. A woman couldn't leave a man or he'd petition the court that he'd been abandoned. And if there were kids involved, that meant a woman gave them up to him because she "deserted" them. In those days, women who worked outside the home or got divorced were looked on as "loose women". If a woman got a divorce she was fair game to every guy looking for a fling because she was "used goods".

I'll leave it at that. I don't mind who likes Motherpeace and who doesn't. I like some parts and don't like other parts as well, but I think it's an important deck.
 

nisaba

And it's true that men are more physically aggressive by nature than women are, and are more prone to fight than women are.

<grin> You haven't been to the Grand Hotel in Wyong on "Girls" night, have you. Mix a bunch of women with a bunch of alcohol ... the local police force always dread every second Thursday. There is always much more violence than on every other Thursday (Boys' night) or the rest of the week (regular people).

There's probably a reason I don't date in my community.

I'd love to agree with you ... except for this one particular practical example.
 

tarotbear

A feminist deck is no more man-hating than a gay man's deck is female-hating.

Not quite sure if this is a reference to my or Lee's Gay Tarot or not, or if it's a back-handed compliment; however - you can believe whatever you chose to see as well as I can - and I repeat what I said in my original statement: 'The Motherpeace deck was a total instant turn-off for me.'
 

RunningWild

I have the Motherpeace deck but don't use it. I wanted to wait until I had some of the books on it since it was just the deck and when I got it, the thought of reading "intuitively" put me off.

What little information I remember reading on it, it was more of an empowering deck, not a man-hating one. And why is it that if men are excluded, or not seen as they would have us see them, that suddenly it is "man-hating"? Who gets to define how women see the world and experience life? Men? No thank you.
 

Aeric

And I'll simply repeat what I have always stated: there are degrees to the response that feminist decks give. One cannot judge the entire corpus of feminist decks by Motherpeace alone any more than the entire corpus of Tarot decks by RWS.

I came to this undertanding having analyzed four decks: Motherpeace, Daughters of the Moon, Medicine Woman, and Sacred Feminine, each created at a particular time reflective of its values. I studied their accompanying literature, written by the same ladies who designed the artwork themselves.

Motherpeace and Daughters were created at almost the same time. Yet I can pronounce Daughters politely exclusionary, and Mother rudely inclusionary. Daughters leaves men out almost completely with no mockery or condescension; Mother puts men in and patronizes and demonizes them as objects of ridicule. This doesn't make me a woman-hater. It makes me pity a particular group of women who designed one deck of cards, and praise another group. These are women who influenced each other's ideologies directly in the same time period, yet produced vastly different perspectives in two Tarot decks. I respond to their decks and their writing.

I favour the positive male inclusion of Medicine Woman and Sacred Feminine, decks of the 90s and 2000s reflective of a feminism that focuses on embracing equality of everyone as a collective at once, more than 70s and 80s second-wave did. I feel proud to be welcomed to these decks by women who claim that women and men can both learn from their material without favouritism. I'm not judged unworthy of wisdom, incomplete in spirit or value, or socially inept by these decks, any more than women who use them are. I'm proud to be treated on an equal playing field.

I'm a man with a physical disability who was raised with the notion that not being able to physically compete makes me inferior, and I was placed with girls in order to "balance" this. I was called effeminate, worthless, a social burden. When boy bullies wanted to fight, I was called a coward for refusing. I was taken advantage of physically by my peers and sexually by an adult. In my childhood I knew no better; today I understand how degrading it was to both me and the girls I was compared to. My perspective is to favour a deck that treats me no differently than anyone else, because everyone has a right to learn and understand exactly the same beneficial wisdom.

For everyone who praises a politically ideological deck there will be its detractors who are entitled to the opposite voice based on their own experiences. I'd never advise anyone not to use a deck, but I'll certainly rank it on a list of comparative ones, and encourage one I consider better.
 

Grizabella

Not quite sure if this is a reference to my or Lee's Gay Tarot or not, or if it's a back-handed compliment; however - you can believe whatever you chose to see as well as I can - and I repeat what I said in my original statement: 'The Motherpeace deck was a total instant turn-off for me.'

I was just good-naturedly tongue in cheek kidding around with you, tarotbear. I've never seen your gay deck, but I'm sure it's a good one. And perfectly honestly, it turned me right off for a long time. I couldn't figure out why I kept it, but I just dif

And I'll simply repeat what I have always stated: there are degrees to the response that feminist decks give. One cannot judge the entire corpus of feminist decks by Motherpeace alone any more than the entire corpus of Tarot decks by RWS.

I came to this undertanding having analyzed four decks: Motherpeace, Daughters of the Moon, Medicine Woman, and Sacred Feminine, each created at a particular time reflective of its values. I studied their accompanying literature, written by the same ladies who designed the artwork themselves.

Motherpeace and Daughters were created at almost the same time. Yet I can pronounce Daughters politely exclusionary, and Mother rudely inclusionary. Daughters leaves men out almost completely with no mockery or condescension; Mother puts men in and patronizes and demonizes them as objects of ridicule. This doesn't make me a woman-hater. It makes me pity a particular group of women who designed one deck of cards, and praise another group. These are women who influenced each other's ideologies directly in the same time period, yet produced vastly different perspectives in two Tarot decks. I respond to their decks and their writing.

I favour the positive male inclusion of Medicine Woman and Sacred Feminine, decks of the 90s and 2000s reflective of a feminism that focuses on embracing equality of everyone as a collective at once, more than 70s and 80s second-wave did. I feel proud to be welcomed to these decks by women who claim that women and men can both learn from their material without favouritism. I'm not judged unworthy of wisdom, incomplete in spirit or value, or socially inept by these decks, any more than women who use them are. I'm proud to be treated on an equal playing field.

I'm a man with a physical disability who was raised with the notion that not being able to physically compete makes me inferior, and I was placed with girls in order to "balance" this. I was called effeminate, worthless, a social burden. When boy bullies wanted to fight, I was called a coward for refusing. I was taken advantage of physically by my peers and sexually by an adult. In my childhood I knew no better; today I understand how degrading it was to both me and the girls I was compared to. My perspective is to favour a deck that treats me no differently than anyone else, because everyone has a right to learn and understand exactly the same beneficial wisdom.

For everyone who praises a politically ideological deck there will be its detractors who are entitled to the opposite voice based on their own experiences. I'd never advise anyone not to use a deck, but I'll certainly rank it on a list of comparative ones, and encourage one I consider better.

I'm not a feminist and never was one. I always kind of distanced myself from feminists in fact. But as I've gotten older, I see this deck differently than I did from the beginning. I lived through the times when the deck was created and I see it from a different viewpoint. It's thanks to those (in my hometown) who quit shaving their legs and underarms, foreswore deodorant (and I swear, sometimes showers, too) wore men's boots and went to work to make a difference for women. But not only for women, for men, too. They didn't campaign against men or against women who love men, they just wanted women to be considered human beings with the same rights as anyone else has. They did make some inroads and they had to get militant to make a difference. If that made any men feel threatened or turned off, I guess it's collateral damage.

And Aeric, I see where you're coming from, but I don't know whether it's a good thing or a bad one that you were humiliated being "one of the girls". Are we really so awful? And can you not now see it from the vantage point of how women felt, since you got lumped in with them? I'm sorry your childhood was like that. I hope it's way better now. :)
 

Grizabella

Wait a minute. Why are we defending the Motherpeace anyway? All I wanted to know was if anyone else was using it because in all the time I've been on AT, it hasn't seemed so. If you don't use it, fine. But if you do, that's where I hoped the conversation would go.

You know, I seem to step in cow patties around here every once in awhile. First it was the Angeles Arrien book on Thoth and now the Motherpeace. I'm still going to use Motherpeace because I like it now, and I may very well study the Thoth according to Angeles Arrien if I darned well want to. But I just might not bring it up. :p
 

Aeric

You don't really have control over a conversation. Discussion of who uses a deck will invariably include responses from people who don't use it and why as much as ones who do. That's how this thread started before it gradually moved to political defence.

But it shouldn't be surprising, considering that Motherpeace is a very galvanizing deck, the first round deck, the first women-centered deck, the first ideologically feminist deck, and a deck that continues to arouse response 40+ years after its debut. Its importance in Tarot history and its perspective of women's issues can't be undervalued. It ticks a lot of boxes, so almost any thread about it is guaranteed to bring up extended discussion.
 

chimera68

hooo boy it is started now.

Wait a minute. Why are we defending the Motherpeace anyway? All I wanted to know was if anyone else was using it because in all the time I've been on AT, it hasn't seemed so. If you don't use it, fine. But if you do, that's where I hoped the conversation would go.

You know, I seem to step in cow patties around here every once in awhile. First it was the Angeles Arrien book on Thoth and now the Motherpeace. I'm still going to use Motherpeace because I like it now, and I may very well study the Thoth according to Angeles Arrien if I darned well want to.

deleted.....thanks.