Motherpeace---do you use it?

BrownBear

This was the first tarot deck that I ever got. I just couldn't get used to using the round cards, so I gave it up.

But I agree that it is a very important historical deck for women, and I am glad to see that some people are still using it today.
 

Aeric

Firstly, I'm sorry to hear of your loss, Grizabella. I hope you grieve well and recover well. I'd love to continue this discussion another time, publicly or privately. It's really interesting to read what you have to say, I love these rich conversations we've had despite our disagreements. I said as much about you to another person who private messaged me abut this thread. You're a super person. This is a thread I'll love to come back to and re-read in future.

To answer your first questions, I would be comfortable with a woman-as-consort-to-God deck provided that she was depicted and treated with respect for her own qualities. But I didn't speak of the man-as-consort idea as a negative. Quite the contrary, it's an honour. But in Dianic circles, it's understood that the Goddess is both primary focus and superior power; she is called Whole Unto Herself (by Z Budapest I believe?). If she chooses to not take a consort, or if the group believes acknowledging a consort isn't necessary, she will reproduce herself; out of herself she grows, self-sustaining and self-perpetuating. It's not an insult to the god or man, just a de-emphasis. That's what a deck like Daughter of the Moon teaches. I believe that even in RWS itself, notably, the High Priestess and Empress cards are the only Majors to explicitly depict pagan deities: the Moon Goddess and Mother Earth, while their male equivalents, Magician and Emperor, aren't gods, only mundane practitioners and rulers. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. And yes history can be coloured to suit an agenda for a deck, there's no denying that. But what it purposely leaves out, neglects to mention, or uses to find flaws where there were none, shouldn't be forgotten, and that information is as right to bring to light.

I don't feel that my being "nitpicky" has anything to do with Tarot or my being male. I happen to enjoy reading, I happen to enjoy studying, scrutinizing, and questioning. I'm always curious to understand what drives artistic people to create music, art, poetry, film. I love reading the backgrounds of things to know what they were thinking as they create. There are women who share this inclination too. It also goes for my interest in Tarot, whether it's decks that I love or ones that I dislike. Who were the people that created them, why did they? When I know this, the deck comes that much more alive for me, because I share in their vision as well as what my own mind takes from it. Not every Tarot user is like this, but I certainly don't begrudge them that.

Although this thread has gotten off topic, it's a natural, organic progression to express both likes and dislikes about a deck, because some people have tried to use it, which is to say they may have once owned it, as I did. If books are sold separately from decks, as with Motherpeace, I keep them when I get rid of a deck I'm finished with. I've also tried to ensure that comparisons of other decks at least lead back to Mother to tie things together. We've all agreed how dynamic and how important Motherpeace really is in the grand scheme and history of Tarot, so I feel that critical discussion about it should be encouraged. While I admit that I've leaned heavily on my negative views of Mother, I wasn't lying when I said that is certainly women-empowering and there is a lot of positivity to be gleaned from it, that it carries both postive and negative connotations for me. I'd be happy to elaborate on what I feel are the benefits, but I fear it may have come too late. At least one person admitted to having shut me off completely, and I may have alienated others. But I've been civil and so have most people who responded. Would anyone like me to continue?

I also think the thread has become very dynamic and we've learn a lot about and from each other. We've shared personal experiences as well as linked what intrigues us about Mothepeace to other decks, what each of us draws from it specifically, and Tarot in general. It's all very colourful. I like to think that's worth something to carry away if the thread should end, but I hope it won't. I certainly don't want you to think you ought to resign it to slow thread death.
 

avalonian

Ahh, there I'm afraid we'll have to disagree.

I've never believed that the amount of male characters or female characters in Tarot images affects the level of "masculine" or "feminine" energy. In fact I have trouble with that entire concept. And the fact remains that such decks whether depicting all women like Daughters of the Moon, or having men on a selection of cards (Sacred Feminine as well as Motherpeace, I might add), the female, the woman, the "feminine" elements of Water and Earth, the Goddess is elevated above both sexes. Even if a man is depicted, the lessons in a women-centered deck are how he relates to the Divine Feminine, not how the Divine Feminine is affected by him. It is whole unto itself and both women and men are its vessels.

The God is de-emphasized or ignored completely, and the human women are the teachers, guides, and superiors. The highest status that a male carries in the vast majority of these decks is as a consort to the Goddess, and She is the prime mover. That's also how the God is venerated in some Dianic Wiccan circles, if he is venerated at all. The Goddess is always the superior.

So even a women-centered deck that has balanced gender representation is unarguably overwhelmingly feminine in influence, energy, power, and focus. That's what decks want both women and men to understand. The balance will always be tipped in favour of the female, no matter what deck you choose, because the focus is purposely not on the masculine.

My contention is where the images of the male are condescended to, patronized, or demonized in that representation while teaching about the feminine. I don't feel that's necessary, and we've already covered ground where people disagree with me. The man cannot learn about or learn from the goodness of the woman if he is mocked as a caricature of his potential, any more than a caricatured, debased woman learns about herself. This is the philosophy of equalism that I carry forward to set examples in a world that is not equal, and which certain women-centered decks provide.

Sorry, just to be clear, which part of my post do you actually disagree with?

I deliberately kept it personal to me, about how I feel, that the world I live in feels unbalanced, that is how it feels to me, possibly because I work in a corporate environment where one has to act like a man to survive. My brother lives with me and watches sport constantly. I have just split up from my boyfriend who constantly tried to control me, including nagging me until I got rid of half my tarot collection. The ones he had a real issue with were the "feminine" ones, such as the Motherpeace and anything to do with Goddesses.

I personally don't think of this as a feminine deck because of how many women are in it, or how few men are in it. I think of it as a feminine deck because it feels like a feminine deck. I'm trying to connect to the feminine energy that I feel is missing from my life and I don't feel that working with decks like, for example, The Tarot of Vikings or the Tarot of Baseball is going to be much help.

Decks like the Motherpeace, Songs for the Journey Home, Tarot of the Crone, Shining Tribe, these are the ones I am drawn to at the moment, these are the ones that I feel will help me to come to terms with a huge life change.

I could go through my entire collection of decks and identify each one as feeling either masculine, feminine or balanced (to me) without taking them out of the box and counting how many men or women were pictured.
 

FLizarraga

Anyway, I lost a long-time, dear extended family member unexpectedly today, so I'm just going to read a book and go to bed early, I think. Thanks to everyone who has been civil and carried on an interesting discussion. Keep it going if you want to, but I'm just going to leave the thread to carry on. I'm not a very good participant right now.

Sorry to hear about your loss, Grizabella. Usually ties to our extended family are so much deeper than ties to our biological families. Blood is thicker than water, but spirit is thicker than blood.
 

Aeric

Thanks for elaborating. I had gotten the feeling you were speaking of the world in general when you spoke of the world you live in. I was wrong, sorry.

Per Tarot, I'm very sorry that you lost half your collection to your ex's whims. I hope you can recover them someday. The explanation you gave is both beautiful and incredibly important to the security and comfort that these decks provide you.

SHINING TRIBE! Do I miss that one sometimes. I keep forgetting to mention it in this context that it's the only example I can see of a deck that was changed from its first version (Shining Woman) to make it more gender-inclusive, although I still get a predominantly feminine feel. I only gave it up because it wasn't seeing as much use as my others at the time that I was purging the collection. But it is a lovely, natural, raw deck. Do take care of yours and enjoy it for me!

But as for your brother constantly watching sports, so does my female cousin. She loves football and baseball, and I'm bored out of my skull by them ;)
 

Grizabella

I was having a more difficult day than usual yesterday and by the time I made that last post, I was just in a very "whatever!" mood. I wasn't upset with you, Aeric. You've been very civil and nice with your posts.

I don't mean you in particular are nit-picky Aeric. What I meant by saying that is that men are more analytical and detail oriented. I've never really been a person who can make sense of history (as in analyzing it) or the mythic gods and godesses, so when the conversation takes that turn, I just kind of get lost. I like this deck and I can sort out what's coming from a feminist bias and if I don't agree, leave that and use it anyway. I like the round factor and the way it says so much about life in general. Just because it's feminist doesn't mean a person has to read it with a male is terrible position.

What I really fail to understand here, though, is why, with these two decks--Motherpeace and Thoth---there's such a protest put up, usually by males. If anyone wants to study them differently or to use them differently and talk about it openly here, the ranks close. There are no other decks that this happens with that I've seen. Why is that with just these two decks? If I try to post a study of other books besides the usual ones with Thoth, I can't do that. Well, not can't, but it seems to be discouraged and if I did, it would degenerate into all who want to study it differently spending all their time defending it and discussing it ad nauseum. I LIKE THOTH----:p But I not only don't want to spend a huge block of my remaining days on earth studying books that I don't understand, I also feel that I should be allowed to do what I want to do---post an alternative Thoth study and have it go as unchallenged as any other deck. No other deck is so jealously guarded as Thoth and no other deck is so aggravating to males as Motherpeace, it seems. Leave it to me to pick winners. lol

I like men. I raised two, was sister to 5 and have 7 male grandchildren and i male great-grandchild. In my extended family I have tons of male relatives and I love them all. And for that matter, I was married four times. I didn't do it well, obviously, but I tell people now at least I have a resume'. :)

I'm going to finish up the Motherpeace study group, all by myself if I have to. And I'm going to learn to use Thoth in whatever ways I can understand it. But I still think it's sad that these two decks are off limits for using however one wants to use them. I don't understand it either, but I don't have to understand everything, I guess.
 

RunningWild

Griz, my condolences.

Also...

I very much look forward to reading your take on this deck when you get around to doing it. I usually like to see how the artist/author intended a deck to be viewed, what they're trying to convey, how it fits within whichever system they're aiming for. But I also enjoy chucking all that out a window and seeing how others interpret the decks without any outside influence.
 

chimera68

I was having a more difficult day than usual yesterday and by the time I made that last post, I was just in a very "whatever!" mood. I wasn't upset with you, Aeric. You've been very civil and nice with your posts.

I don't mean you in particular are nit-picky Aeric. What I meant by saying that is that men are more analytical and detail oriented. I've never really been a person who can make sense of history (as in analyzing it) or the mythic gods and godesses, so when the conversation takes that turn, I just kind of get lost. I like this deck and I can sort out what's coming from a feminist bias and if I don't agree, leave that and use it anyway. I like the round factor and the way it says so much about life in general. Just because it's feminist doesn't mean a person has to read it with a male is terrible position.

What I really fail to understand here, though, is why, with these two decks--Motherpeace and Thoth---there's such a protest put up, usually by males. If anyone wants to study them differently or to use them differently and talk about it openly here, the ranks close. There are no other decks that this happens with that I've seen. Why is that with just these two decks? If I try to post a study of other books besides the usual ones with Thoth, I can't do that. Well, not can't, but it seems to be discouraged and if I did, it would degenerate into all who want to study it differently spending all their time defending it and discussing it ad nauseum. I LIKE THOTH----:p But I not only don't want to spend a huge block of my remaining days on earth studying books that I don't understand, I also feel that I should be allowed to do what I want to do---post an alternative Thoth study and have it go as unchallenged as any other deck. No other deck is so jealously guarded as Thoth and no other deck is so aggravating to males as Motherpeace, it seems. Leave it to me to pick winners. lol

I like men. I raised two, was sister to 5 and have 7 male grandchildren and i male great-grandchild. In my extended family I have tons of male relatives and I love them all. And for that matter, I was married four times. I didn't do it well, obviously, but I tell people now at least I have a resume'. :)

I'm going to finish up the Motherpeace study group, all by myself if I have to. And I'm going to learn to use Thoth in whatever ways I can understand it. But I still think it's sad that these two decks are off limits for using however one wants to use them. I don't understand it either, but I don't have to understand everything, I guess.

DELETED, thanks for all the stress.
 

3Jane

I'm a feminist. I believe that women (as well as other underprivileged groups) do need "a room of one's own" until the situation is rectified. Decks like Daughters of the Moon and Motherpeace provide this space.

I will therefore continue working on them and with them. Additionally, in order to provide safe space to discuss my posts with me to anyone who wishes to do so, I will also be reposting them on my blog, http://embrace-the-goddess.3jane.co.uk/ - starting this afternoon.

Threre are many excellent resources on the web available to people who are interested in exploring their feelings around feminism or women-centered materials, reasons for them being made, etc. One blog that I'm aware of is http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/ including (but not limited to) http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/10/faq-why-do-you-feminists-hate-men/