Quantum Theory and Tarot Inquiry...

[serenaserendipity]

Quantum Theory and Tarot Inquiry...(Original with latest posts)

Hi guys...

So I've been thinking this over for a while and I thought it might be fruitful to post this idea to the board...

I guess metaphysical ideas can be difficult to discuss when people are coming from different mainframe backgrounds of spirituality. But tarot is our common ground so I thought I would see if other people also have reflections about this...

One of the many questions people are curious about with relation to tarot is their Destiny... and more pertinently, "What is going on?" they either want to know what's in store, or what is more clearly going on in the situation they are in (kind of like an omniscient sight.)

I don't know a LOT about quantum theory, only what I have read and thought of on my own... but it does seem to support the idea that destiny (or the fabric of our lives) are NOT set in stone... that there are many levels of interrelated, interconnected levels of reality, dimensions even, that are connected down to the level of the tiniest particles.

These particles are not bits of matter, they are pure energy posing as bits of matter, and they are influenced by whether you are observing them.

SO if you put an intention out into the universe (as is espoused in the tradition of prayer and new age thought) these little particles are influenced and put it into motion

IF the surrounding circumstances allow it...

I am wondering how Tarot can be more finely honed as a tool, to make sure we are taking detailed pictures of the overview of the situations, magnifying how we are all connected, used for the best for all... and NOT backfiring against us, as we come to the point where we are observing the universe around us more than acting, and thus becoming passive observers with microscopes (or telepathicscopes)/

I think of Phillip Pullman's metaphor/invention of the Alethiometer... and how it operates through "dust", in the Golden Compass series (NOT properly represented in the movie, in my OPINION). Dust is cosmic matter, little quantum particles...

Influenceable, influencing, influenced by us.

Any thoughts?

 

[Umbrae]

I think that we can use Tarot as a tool to help guide our intention, and make changes on the quantum level that appear on the Newtonian level.

Once we get to the quantum level we find that reality as we know it - does not exist. It's something that physicists agree on.

Tarot is a tool - and I believe it can help us affect changes on all levels of our lives.

Take a look at Qablah – from which we learn that although there are four worlds that we exist in simultaneously, our awareness limits us. We are aware of only one, even though our actions resonate on all four worlds!

Qabalistic writings even account for the big-bang!

There are a few books that one can read and tease both your brain and your imagination – and perhaps even trigger your spiritual growth.

Quantum Philosophy: Understanding and Interpreting Contemporary Science by Roland Omnes and Arturo Sangalli
Dancing Wu Li Masters: An Overview of the New Physics (Perennial Classics) by Gary Zukav
God and the New Physics by Paul Davies

Since we live in the Quantum (and are aware of the Newtonian) world, once we learn to create quantum changes with Newtonian results…well now ain’t that what alchemy is all about? And once we learn that we can choose not to be mere observers…

I’ve watched Tarot, when used properly (as a tool), help people make complete life changes – against all odds – when the Newtonian world rules were such that complete life changes would not have been possible.

I'm rambling - and still looking for Schrodinger's cat...

“How often we forget, that once we could fly” Barbara Gomez

 

[Splungeman]

Attempting....to hold....back.....rant......failing......raaaaAAAAAAAAANNNNT!!!

Quantum Theory is something that a lot of people use to validate wonky ideas when faced with the giant foe that is science and reason. You'll hear all sorts of folks who seem to think they are "experts" in quantum theory explain all kinds of stupid crap by choosing bits an pieces of confusing techno babble from quantum theory books and applying it to their latest trademarked "spiritual technology". (That's a whole other rant...so that we don't sound like nuts, we'll call our spiritual philosophy or method "technology"...blech!!)

Quantum theory isn't understood fully by anyone at this point. It is a wonderful brain exercise to be sure, but to use it to explain things that need no explanation is to me completely ridiculous. Does learning about quantum theory make you a better Tarot reader? Nope. Not really. But if you are faced with someone who doubts or is attempting to disprove Tarot, it certainly sounds "smart" to spew out some techno babble...if anything to baffle them into a state of disorientation and confusion so that while they are distracted you can make a speedy retreat out the back door!

I also find the idea that these particles or whatever you want to call them react when being "observed" kind of silly. Interesting in theory but you fall into several holes. What the heck does "observe" mean anyway? See? Hear? Feel? Fart upon? Once you say something like, "The subatomic particles we discuss in quantum theory may react when observed" you have opened up the door to all kinds of weirdos taking this statement out of context to validate theories like... I dunno...sentient poo.

Serena, let me say now that I was in no way ranting at you. You asked a good question and I hope started up a nice long discussion on a topic that I feel very passionately about. So...please don't take the ranting as directed at you. Sometimes my words vomit forth upon the screen...I can't help it!

 

[Umbrae]

Attempting....to hold....back.....rant......failing......raaaaAAAAAAAAANNNNT!!!

Rant on...

These particles are not bits of matter, they are pure energy posing as bits of matter, and they are influenced by whether you are observing them.

Technically, atoms – the building blocks of matter – are not things…they are more like verbs. Since we are made of atoms – are we things? Some physicists say no – that we too…are more like verbs rather than nouns.

What’s scary, is that this is not woo-woo new age thought. This is hard science.

“In the field of purposive human action and social relations no experiments can be made and no experiments have ever been made. To the extent that models deal with real conditions, all data used in the model are derived from history. The future is something else entirely. Conditions change. Variables and change cannot be isolated from other variables and changes.” Ludwig von Mises (economist)

“What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning. (And) Since the measuring device has been constructed by the observer ... we have to remember that what we observe is not nature itself but nature exposed to our method of questioning.” Heisenberg, Physics and Philosophy, 1963

...it's hard science. But if you don't understand it, it does seem like woo-woo silliness.

However - it's agreed by the science guys...that on a molecular level - Newtonian laws don't work. It is further agreed, that time and space do not exist on a molecular level.

But dang it - that just don't make no sense.

But the Buddhists have told us for years, “Everything – is but an illusion.” Well ding dang – that just makes no sense.

Or does it.

To me it does.

 

[trinity8]

Its all so practical

I don't find it useful to work with the 'everything is illusion' idea, since it doesn't feel like that until one day you have a breakthrough and then its like .. durgh... everything IS an illusion. In the meantime, it feels pretty real.

Back to tarot - it has everything to do with allowing people to see the choices that they didn't know existed, allowing them to see things in a new light, in a way they hadn't considered, switching on the light in those dark unexamined corners and then assisting them to consider options that were previously beyond their imagination.

Surely every question you ask your cards is an act of observation of self that opens you out to a greater reality?

And that's why the wording of the questions is so important. "Why am I so unpopular?" may not be quite so illuminating as "What steps can I take to be more at ease with others?" .. just for eg!

Just consider how profound those readings are in your life, and there's your answer. You're already living in a quantum world. Fully.

in love,
trinity

 

[Splungeman]

I think that we can use Tarot as a tool to help guide our intention, and make changes on the quantum level that appear on the Newtonian level.

Once we get to the quantum level we find that reality as we know it - does not exist. It's something that physicists agree on.

Tarot is a tool - and I believe it can help us affect changes on all levels of our lives.

Take a look at Qablah – from which we learn that although there are four worlds that we exist in simultaneously, our awareness limits us. We are aware of only one, even though our actions resonate on all four worlds!

Qabalistic writings even account for the big-bang!

There are a few books that one can read and tease both your brain and your imagination – and perhaps even trigger your spiritual growth.

Quantum Philosophy: Understanding and Interpreting Contemporary Science by Roland Omnes and Arturo Sangalli
Dancing Wu Li Masters: An Overview of the New Physics (Perennial Classics) by Gary Zukav
God and the New Physics by Paul Davies

Since we live in the Quantum (and are aware of the Newtonian) world, once we learn to create quantum changes with Newtonian results…well now ain’t that what alchemy is all about? And once we learn that we can choose not to be mere observers…

I’ve watched Tarot, when used properly (as a tool), help people make complete life changes – against all odds – when the Newtonian world rules were such that complete life changes would not have been possible.

I'm rambling - and still looking for Schrodinger's cat...

“How often we forget, that once we could fly” Barbara Gomez

Heh...I wrote my rant before you wrote this, Umbrae. Just want to point out that it was not directed at this. Also I want to say that the way you're talking here is not what I meant in my other post about somebody using quantum theory to validate wild claims.

I think it is useful and essential to mull over these theories and look into them. A lot of them are quite exciting and may indeed, after more study, turn out to have quite a bit of substance to them. My problem is using and presenting them as if they are long standing fully understood 100% proven fact to pathetically try to appeal to folks who need to hear that some sort of scientific study was involved in order for them to commit to trying whatever it is they are selling. This angers me because it operates on the assumption that just because a study was done and a paper was written by some scientist somewhere, it is true and should therefore be taken seriously when applied to whatever it is that is being sold. It falls in there with the common sales trick of quickly spouting out technical information and stats about the thing being sold to make the customer think that the thing is impressive and that the sales person is trustworthy.

I wouldn't dream of presenting the quantum stuff to a sitter in any way other than as just food for thought: "Some people think Tarot works because of XYZ." And I'd only do that if I was in an in-depth discussion with the sitter after they asked me how it works. My usual answer is, "Y'know...I couldn't tell you exactly how it works, there are a lot of theories from psychic ability and divine will to quantum theory. I find the mystery intriguing. Let's find out if it works for you." (proceed with shuffling)

 

[Splungeman]

Rant on...



Technically, atoms – the building blocks of matter – are not things…they are more like verbs. Since we are made of atoms – are we things? Some physicists say no – that we too…are more like verbs rather than nouns.

What’s scary, is that this is not woo-woo new age thought. This is hard science.

Yes it is. And it's really cool and fun to think about and worth further study. But can it be used to prove that my Lizard Yogi Chakra Healing Technology (TM) is going to work for you?

 

[philebus]

I do just want to point out that quantum theory does NOT tell us that the future is not set in stone - its says that on a sub-atomic scale, some events are random rather than determined. This randomness has little impact on theories of time, or even theories of determinism.

Silver tea spoons do not randomly materialise in front of us, nor will wishes or prayers influence the workings of the universe. As a rule of thumb, if it's not sub-atomic, hesitate and research before applying quantum theory.

I would also point out that quantum theory a very limited tool at the moment, it isn't really telling us much at this time. The challenge is to unite quantum theory and relativism in a new theory that is unlikely to fully resemble either.

As for the nature of time, I have recommened before the works of D H Mellor: "Real Time II" (this is a re-writing of his earlier book "Real Time") and "The Facts of Causation". The latter text does use a lot of formal logic but he explains all the terms as he introduces them, so if you follow it slowly, you will get through it.

 

[Dave.vdv]

Oh love it, tarot and quantum.

I see both tarot and quantum as a means of bringing something in our awareness that really lays beyond our more common senses.

But to have an understanding of some sort we bring in into a form of comprehending, what doesn't define what is, yes relative.

To bring the quantum and observing to a understanding for me i take the example of a flower and a bee.
The flower adepts to the bee and visa versa, we don't really see a bee and especially a flower as something conscious, aldo they seem to have reacted to eachother.
I think in the micro world we share common "goal" or need and so we do in the macro world, none of the views defines what is i think, we are all of it but as one entity we can only be aware of a verry small part.
So things change if they are observed and what's observing changes to by what it is observing.
If you think of it we are observed a lot more then we observe ourself, i wish we could find another word for it, because it's to bound to our senses.
Aware, things our aware of eachother on the micro and macro level probly, and our conscious awareness is only a verry small spectrum of it all.

So tarot is a way of broadening that spectrum of awareness i think, aldo if you take into account that where not only the observer but the observed i dunno how much we can speak of free will, enough to feel free ?

 

[Lleminawc]

However - it's agreed by the science guys...that on a molecular level - Newtonian laws don't work. It is further agreed, that time and space do not exist on a molecular level.

Can you quote a source for this claim? I mean a reputable scientific authority, not just another website.

BTW quantum theory has to do with sub-atomic particles. Molecules are actually bunches of atoms stuck together.