Quantum Theory and Tarot Inquiry...

fferyllt

Umbrae said:
Uh – how do you know, what another person thinks (it means)?
I can tell from context when someone doesn't understand what a quantum observation is, as I have taught quantum mechanics.

Umbrae said:
We're playin' here...
Play to your hearts content.

Just be aware that when someone claims that quantum theory implies something that in fact quantum theory doesn't imply, you are in the realm of fiction. Why hang that on poor quantum theory? Why not just let ideas stand alone, rather than dragging in quantum theory?
 

Sheri

Manjusri said:
Also, as our world is built on molecules, the individual would have to explain how timeless molecules can act in accordance with time in Macro world...

Easily...

Our physical bodies are made up of the same molecules/atoms whether we are "alive" or "dead."

The Law of Conservation of Mass (matter/energy is neither created nor destroyed) is very true in that the life processes in the macro world we live in is the ultimate recycling program. (yes energy can be created with the destruction of matter - but there is still an equilibrium maintained... maybe the topic of another thread). :D

For example, who knows how old the carbon atoms (or the molecules they are part of) that are in my body are? Guaranteed they will be around after I am done with my body... maybe floating about to get taken up into something else.

:love: valeria
 

Venefica

Reevaluation = Insight

If Quantum is the diamond, with each turn of the gem of knowledge we may also turn over our foundational thoughts with it.

However, looking THROUGH the gem as the holograph analogy persuades, we are able to see facet upon facet in unobstructed splendor.

When the foundational prongs of our setting is firm yet gentle, and the diamond placed precisely - our perspective is infinite.

And so new insight is to our foundational beliefs as the Tarot is to Quantum.
 

The crowned one

serenaserendipity said:
These particles are not bits of matter, they are pure energy posing as bits of matter, and they are influenced by whether you are observing them.

Sorry serenaserendipity but there is nothing special about people observing something. In quantum physics an observer is NOT a conscious person, but anything that can interact with the thing being observed, for example a rock.

Particles ARE bits of matter. While it is possible to convert matter to energy, and vice a versa, there is no confusion about what is matter and what is energy.

Umbrae said:
Once we get to the quantum level we find that reality as we know it - does not exist. It's something that physicists agree on.

The reality you know is very well defined by physicists and quantum physics has very little to do with your day to day life. Quantum physics mainly applies to interaction between elementary particles, not the gross matter of our day to day life.

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Umbrae said:
Since we live in the Quantum (and are aware of the Newtonian) world, once we learn to create quantum changes with Newtonian results…well now ain’t that what alchemy is all about? And once we learn that we can choose not to be mere observers…

We do not live in the Quantum. Are you a single proton? Likely not thus you life in the macro world where the rules are very well defined. You are so large and slow that the quantum fluctuations are immaterial.

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Splungeman your first post... I agree.

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Umbrae said:
Technically, atoms – the building blocks of matter – are not things…they are more like verbs. Since we are made of atoms – are we things? Some physicists say no – that we too…are more like verbs rather than nouns.

You are wrong. Atoms are matter. There is no disagreement about this among any scientist.

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Umbrae said:
However - it's agreed by the science guys...that on a molecular level - Newtonian laws don't work. It is further agreed, that time and space do not exist on a molecular level.

You are correct that Newtonian mechanics do not apply to calculating the orbit of an electron around a nucleus, but time and space still exist, there are still rules, but now the rules include well defined rules incorporating probability. PS these rules are the atomic and lower level, not molecular.

I only read a few of the posts and decided it would be too much work to respond to all these misconceptions, but I think the key here is that to think you understand Quantum physics without a Doctorate and 10 years of practical experience means you do not. Do not fool yourself. I don’t, and some of the flaws here are so big you could fly the starship Enterprise through them at warp speed;).
 

Sheri

Posting as a member here and purely my own opinion, I don't think that a Doctorate and 10 years of practical experience in quantum physics should be required to have this discussion or put forth ideas for discussion - in the same way that the same experience isn't required to refute or attempt to discredit those ideas.

I don't understand what makes the subject so special that it can't be discussed openly here as other subjects are.
 

The crowned one

valeria said:
Posting as a member here and purely my own opinion, I don't think that a Doctorate and 10 years of practical experience in quantum physics should be required to have this discussion or put forth ideas for discussion - in the same way that the same experience isn't required to refute or attempt to discredit those ideas.

I don't understand what makes the subject so special that it can't be discussed openly here as other subjects are.

Good point. I was being a science snob. Sorry. I think I was exaggerating to make a point...Most people really do not understand quantum. It can be discussed but there are alot of obvious errors and misconceptions in the discussion. What makes it special is the math and its distance from every day experience. We live in a Newtonian world basically.

My cruelly cynical and mathematically astute brother is over and he is having a bad influence on me over Christmas :D
 

philebus

I didn't think that anyone is suggesting that this cannot or should not be discussed openly here. However, for any discussion to be meaningful does require some degree of understanding of the subject at hand. Quantum physics, along with temporal physics and philosophy, are very involved subjects that have been subject to a lot of myth making, misunderstanding, and misrepresentation.

Somethings in life really are very complicated. I could not begin to contribute much of meaning to a discussion about virology, having only a basic knowledge of the subject matter. I can ask lots of questions though - which is always worth while.
 

The crowned one

philebus you put that better then I did. I am trying to say that.
 

Grizabella

Splungeman said:
Quantum theory isn't understood fully by anyone at this point. It is a wonderful brain exercise to be sure,

Ummmm----this could be said of Tarot, my dear one. :D It's not fully understood, either, and is a wonderful brain exercise. Yet you read the cards and purport to be explaining things by that means, do you not? So why not quantum theory?
 

Umbrae

I’m gonna back way up and go back to what this thread is about. I may choose to get to the rest of you later, I may not.

serenaserendipity said:
I don't know a LOT about quantum theory, only what I have read and thought of on my own... but it does seem to support the idea that destiny (or the fabric of our lives) are NOT set in stone... that there are many levels of interrelated, interconnected levels of reality, dimensions even, that are connected down to the level of the tiniest particles.

These particles are not bits of matter, they are pure energy posing as bits of matter, and they are influenced by whether you are observing them.

SO if you put an intention out into the universe (as is espoused in the tradition of prayer and new age thought) these little particles are influenced and put it into motion

IF the surrounding circumstances allow it...

I am wondering how Tarot can be more finely honed as a tool, to make sure we are taking detailed pictures of the overview of the situations, magnifying how we are all connected, used for the best for all... and NOT backfiring against us, as we come to the point where we are observing the universe around us more than acting, and thus becoming passive observers with microscopes (or telepathicscopes)…

…Could perhaps the declared indeterminacy allow free will to step into the gap in the way that free will determines those events which the Law of Nature leaves undetermined? This hope is, at first sight, obvious and understandable.

In this crude form the attempt was made, and the idea, to a certain extent, worked out by the German physicist Pascual Jordan. I believe it to be both physically and morally an impossible solution. As regards the first: according to our present view, the quantum laws, though they leave the single event undetermined, predict a quite definite statistics of events when the same situation occurs again and again. If these statistics are interfered with by any agent, this agent violates the laws of quantum mechanics just as objectionably as if it interfered-in pre-quantum physics--with a strictly causal mechanical law. Now we know that there are no statistics in the reaction of the same person to precisely the same moral situation-the rule is that the same individual in the same situation acts again precisely in the same manner. (Mind you, in precisely the same situation; this does not mean that a criminal or addict cannot be converted or healed by persuasion and example or whatnot-by strong external influence. But this, of course, means that the situation is changed.) The inference is that Jordan's assumption-the direct stepping in of free will to fill the gap of indeterminacy-does amount to an interference with the laws of nature, even in their form accepted in quantum theory. But at that price, of course, we can have everything. This is not a solution of the dilemma.

The moral objection was strongly emphasized by the German philosopher Ernst Cassirer (who died in 1945 in New York as an exile from Nazi Germany). Cassirer's extended criticism of Jordan's ideas is based on a thorough familiarity with the situation in physics. I shall try to summarize it briefly; I would say it amounts to this. Free will in man includes as its most relevant part man's ethical behavior. Supposing the physical events in space and time actually are to a large extent not strictly determined but subject to pure chance, as most physicists in our time believe, then this haphazard side of the goings-on in the material world is certainly (says Cassirer) the very last to be invoked as the physical correlate of man's ethical behavior. For this is anything but haphazard; it is intensely determined by motives ranging from the lowest to the most sublime sort, from greed and spite to genuine love of the fellow creature or sincere religious devotion. Cassirer's lucid discussion makes one feel so strongly the absurdity of basing free will, including ethics, on physical haphazard that the previous difficulty, the antagonism between free will and determinism, dwindles and almost vanishes under the mighty blows Cassirer deals to the opposite view. "Even the reduced extent of predictability" (Cassirer adds) "still granted by Quantum Mechanics would amply suffice to destroy ethical freedom, if the concept and true meaning of the latter were irreconcilable with predictability." Indeed, one begins to wonder whether the supposed paradox is really so shocking, and whether physical determinism is not perhaps quite a suitable correlate to the mental phenomenon of will, which is not always easy to predict "from outside," but usually extremely determined "from inside." To my mind, this is the most valuable outcome of the whole controversy: the scale is turned in favour of a possible reconciliation of free will with physical determinism, when we realise how inadequate a basis physical haphazard provides for ethics.

The net result is that quantum physics has nothing to do with the free will problem. If there is such a problem, it is not furthered a whit by the latest development in physics. To quote Ernst Cassirer again: "Thus it is clear...that a possible change in the physical concept of causality can have no immediate bearing on ethics."

The scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives a lot of factual information, puts all our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.

So, in brief, we do not belong to this material world that science constructs for us. We are not in it; we are outside. We are only spectators. The reason why we believe that we are in it, that we belong to the picture, is that our bodies are in the picture. Our bodies belong to it. Not only my own body, but those of my friends, also of my dog and cat and horse, and of all the other people and animals. And this is my only means of communicating with them.

Moreover, my body is implied in quite a few of the more interesting changes-movements, etc.-that go on in this material world, and is implied in such a way that I feel myself partly the author of these goings-on. But then comes the impasse, this very embarrassing discovery of science, that I am not needed as an author. Within the scientific world-picture all these happenings take care of themselves-they are amply accounted for by direct energetic interplay. Even the human body's movements "are its own" as Sherrington put it. The scientific world-picture vouchsafes a very complete under- standing of all that happens-it makes it just a little too understand- able. It allows you to imagine the total display as that of a mechanical clockwork which, for all that science knows, could go on just the same as it does, without there being consciousness, will, endeavor, pain and delight and responsibility connected with it-though they actually are. And the reason for this disconcerting situation is just this: that, for the purpose of constructing the picture of the external world, we have used the greatly simplifying device of cutting our own personality out, removing it; hence it is gone, it has evaporated, it is ostensibly not needed.

In particular, and most importantly, this is the reason why the scientific worldview contains of itself no ethical values, no aesthetical values, not a word about our own ultimate scope or destination, and no God, if you please. Whence came I, whither go I?

Science cannot tell us a word about why music delights us, of why and how an old song can move us to tears.

Science, we believe, can, in principle, describe in full detail all that happens in the latter case in our sensorium and "motorium" from the moment the waves of compression and dilation reach our ear to the moment when certain glands secrete a salty fluid that emerges from our eyes. But of the feelings of delight and sorrow that accompany the process science is completely ignorant-and therefore, reticent.

Science is reticent too when it is a question of the great Unity-the One of Parmenides-of which we all somehow form part, to which we belong. The most popular name for it in our time is God-with a capital "G." Science is, very usually, branded as being atheistic. After what we said, this is not astonishing. If its world-picture does not even contain blue, yellow, bitter, sweet-beauty, delight, and sorrow-, if personality is cut out of it by agreement, how should it contain the most sublime idea that presents itself to human mind?

The world is big and great and beautiful. My scientific knowledge of the events in it comprises hundreds of millions of years. Yet in another way it is ostensibly contained in a poor seventy or eighty or ninety years granted to me-a tiny spot in immeasurable time, nay even in the finite millions and milliards of years that I have learnt to measure and to assess. Whence come I and whither go I? That is the great unfathomable question, the same for every one of us. Science has no answer to it.

Schroedinger