Value and Worth

[Milfoil]

It's often said or implied in spiritual and religious stories and texts that the harder the lesson, or the more difficult the task then the greater the rewards. On the hero's journey or the heroines trials, they face setbacks, swamps, deviousness, lies, danger and difficulties but in order to win the hand of the lady (become one with the great mother), obtain the prize or free herself from the hag, the seeker has to learn harsh and often humiliating lessons.

In the tale of Baba Yaga (the old hag), she lives at the edge of the forest (between worlds and between the wild and the civilised), she is an antagonist, wise and challenging, she eats children (takes our childish notions away in preparation for adulthood) and lives in a house on chicken legs (the old raised store/grain house where what is necessary to survive and grow are kept), Vassillia the beautiful is given 3 impossible tasks by Baba Yaga which she solves using not her own knowledge and experience because she is young and doesn't have that yet, but by a magic doll given to her by her mother (clan spirit helper).

Why is it that this timeless story which has echos across the world from thousands of years back and which reflects the true nature of spiritual or soul growth is now being forgotten in new-age philosophies? Why do we no longer value the harsh lesson or the difficult task? Why is it all about feeling nice, never saying anything that isn't pleasant and always being sweet and smiling? This is NOT how the Universe works, nor has it ever been.

In the many, many tales of the hero's quest, where the youngest brother sets out to seek his bride or fortune, and has to solve impossible puzzles, he often finds himself seeking the knowledge and wisdom of the old hag who tests him. The old hag is the oldest of all spirits, the Great Mother herself and we all know that she is both fair and generous in July but harsh and testing in January! She is THE source of all knowledge but only those who can accept the humility of being challenged by the ugly, nasty truth of his old hag will find the answers they seek.

One of the best things that ever happened to me was a nervous breakdown/spiritual crisis. From that awful time of testing and pain has come clarity but the testing continues and goes deeper.

Why don't we value this in our contemporary, open spiritual beliefs? Are we all so blinkered by the 'feel good' factor that we have to ignore anything unpleasant or painful, even if it is right, necessary or appropriate?

Our tribal ancestors, and those still practising these traditions, knew that babies and young children must be nurtured, encouraged and protected but there comes a time when a young person, perhaps only 13 or 14, just approaching puberty, needed to face pain, want, hardship, fear and themselves! They devised initiation rites, vision quests etc to give the child their own sense of self and power while, at the same time understanding their humble place in the Universe. The dumbed down version of this is the Christian confirmation or Jewish bar mitzvah which only focuses on a pain-free, pleasant bit of learning about religion and responsibilities but there is no experience, no soul connection, they are like reading a book about the sea but never having gone there or experienced it.

If we only accept the nice comments from people, only look for our own safety and comfort, only do things for others to make ourselves feel better or look good in the eyes of others, never listen to the justified criticism, never step out of our own comfort zone and never accept true responsibility, then how can we learn? These old stories carry a wealth of wisdom which seems to be loosing sway in our modern, comfortable, on demand world and I wonder how far away we will get before the tide will turn?

How do you value or give worth to the uncomfortable things which teach you? When someone challenges your status quo or your ego? How far do you go to speak or face the truth or do you believe that being nice, seen as nice and everything pleasant has more value?

 

[Tor]

I like this post.

I feel it's true that many have wrong focus when it comes to spiritual development. But on the other side - that might be a part of their incarnation, because we can't all have breakdowns. The world is supposed to develop in a more pragmatic and pleasant way too.

But as a spiritual seeker I agree with you. I suffer from paranoid shcizophrenia myself. It has been a lot of pain, but you wouldn't believe the spiritual conversations I had with my "voices".

I believe in that: No pain, no gain.

I also believe in emotions like hate, need of revenge and other supposedly negative treats. I believe they can be legitimate when there is good intentions or pure love behind them.

I don't believe much in how some people practice buddhisme and other religions - they are to me naive, because we live in a partly cruel world. In many cases they are just escapists - just like an alchoholic who wants to be friend with everyone when he's drinking...

Thank you for starting a sober thread like this

 

[ThunderWolf]

This may be a rather short over-simplification, but I think what you're speaking of might be considered one of the deeper mysteries.

Those who don't recognize this fact are usually young either in life or on their spiritual paths. Those who have "been around longer" often learn the lessons you speak of by life banging us around a bit.

That is often a time of finding our way as well. When faced with the reality that life is not all fluffy bunnies and rainbows some turn tail and leave their spiritual paths behind. But others more suited to these paths continue on, realizing there is a lesson to be learned and strength to be gained.

 

[Tor]

I just want to add:

To be true to your heart makes a lot of both good and bad consequences.

 

[Milfoil]

I guess it may be a simple case of everything in it's season and in moderation. Like a kid who never gets any discipline and turns out to be an arrogant brat, or the kid who gets too much discipline and dare not do anything other than what they've been told.

These old stories really do deserve not just closer examination but living through and mirroring in our lives.

I wasn't saying that everyone should go through a breakdown or crisis, though many do, but simply that it is one way of learning profound lessons. Likewise, people do respond well to encouragement, support and gentleness but only so far. All aspects of life are needed, nurture, control, freedom, discipline, gentleness and harshness sometimes too.

One reason the Tarot and runes are so popular because they offer both sides of the coin, not just a sugar coated view of life.

 

[Flaxen]

This is a great question, Milfoil!

The idea that we may be tested is a common one. Often in the older stories, there is a test where we have to demonstrate the ability to overcome prejudice or show kindness where others have failed to do so. Think of all the stories where there is an ugly old woman who asks for something.

Without a doubt we can learn a lot about ourselves and the world around us from difficult experiences. I becomes harder to judge others when we have reached a similar low in our lives. For example, some years ago when I was in my early twenties, I came very close to being made homeless. I was lucky that I wasn't but it does make me reflect carefully on people who are homeless. It made me realise how incredibly vulnerable we all are if we don't have the safety net to stop us slipping through the cracks.

There was a TV programme some years ago where a group of spiritual seekers were encouraged to try different elements of different faiths to see what would help them. It was criticised for encouraging people to cherry-pick the best bits while ignoring any challenging aspects. This ties in with some ideas in the New Age movement - there seems to be a belief that if you are on the right path, everything will be easy - life will flow and doors will open. Conversely, if life is a struggle, you are resisting an important change. My main gripe with this is what about those experiences we really have no control over?

I think we are able to learn from difficult and joyful experiences but to believe that life will always wonderful is naive. There is dark as well as light and perhaps it is how we use these different experiences to help us grow which is the most important thing.

 

[BodhiSeed]

I think we are able to learn from difficult and joyful experiences but to believe that life will always wonderful is naive. There is dark as well as light and perhaps it is how we use these different experiences to help us grow which is the most important thing.

I think people might actually learn to be happier if they understood this. When I look at nature, I see how it deals with droughts in the summer, harsh winters, floods, lightning strikes and fires, etc. We are a part of nature too (though many would consider themselves above it), and so we too experience tough times. I don't think it is to punish, it is just the law of nature; both pleasant and unpleasant exist in it. My problems come when I get so attached to the pleasant that I think I am undeserving of anything else. So I waste time trying to fend off the undesirable and hold on to the desirable instead of accepting what is and making the best of it. Yet these harsh experiences offer me a chance to grasp spiritual tools to help me get through them with as much equanimity as possible. The tools don't knock down the mountains I'll have to climb in life, they just make me a better mountain climber.

 

[Milfoil]

Think of all the stories where there is an ugly old woman who asks for something.

Yes, often she is dirty, ugly and unpleasant (ie she lives outside the norms and social conventions of polite society), she challenges us to accept the uncomfortable truths about ourselves and about life. The hero or heroine who accepts her, is accepting the difficult truths and learning from them. So when someone knocks you down a peg or two, if you understand this metaphor, you will accept the old woman in the words that were so cutting and see the harsh truth that reveals windows into our own soul. After being accepted with civility, the old hag usually gives the hero a magical key, knowledge or gift which helps him/her further on the journey. The gift of wisdom through knowing ourselves!

I think we are able to learn from difficult and joyful experiences but to believe that life will always wonderful is naive. There is dark as well as light and perhaps it is how we use these different experiences to help us grow which is the most important thing.

So do I but only IF we open the door or literally change our minds to the possibility that the painful, difficult, harsh experience was a challenge for a mighty warrior, not a punishment for the weak.

I think people might actually learn to be happier if they understood this. When I look at nature, I see how it deals with droughts in the summer, harsh winters, floods, lightning strikes and fires, etc. We are a part of nature too (though many would consider themselves above it), and so we too experience tough times. I don't think it is to punish, it is just the law of nature; both pleasant and unpleasant exist in it. My problems come when I get so attached to the pleasant that I think I am undeserving of anything else. So I waste time trying to fend off the undesirable and hold on to the desirable instead of accepting what is and making the best of it. Yet these harsh experiences offer me a chance to grasp spiritual tools to help me get through them with as much equanimity as possible. The tools don't knock down the mountains I'll have to climb in life, they just make me a better mountain climber.

Absolutely. Just think back to say 10 years ago, were you as strong then?

One of the fundamental problems I see in society is the persistent need to feel good. I recognise it in myself too so don't think that I feel above this. The need to eat and drink stuff that we don't need, the need to entertain ourselves all the time with TV and other forms of media, the need to make our lives more and more comfortable instead of interesting and expansive. This need to secure comfort both in ourselves and for others, making laws so that nobody experiences any pain or suffering, the nanny state - it all stems from trying to live in summer all year round.

Yes we are part of nature and it is part of us, we cannot be outside it, above it or beyond it.

For me, life is a mirror of the well tended garden. Plant, nurture, repot, feed and support the strong growth but likewise, there are times to harvest, to cut back the old growth, prune back and remove the deadwood. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking the plant but everything to do with love and understanding what the plant really needs to grow stronger than it could if left alone. So all the sickly sweet, love and light, one sided books, tarot decks, teachings and such like, to me are no better than the hate filled and angry rantings of a mad man. Both are missing the point.

 

[Magicus Textor]

I see both sides of it. It can go the other way as well. There are some people who, experiencing trial after trial, let such get to their ego, and believe that they are above the rest who have not gone through such trials.

Every path is perfectly equal. Some people signed up for a more comfortable life, and that is what they will get. Others signed up for a tougher life, and that's what they will get.

However, I don't see any need to be unkind or unpleasant. Certainly some things I say may come across that way, since I won't take someone's ego into consideration, but objectively it doesn't need to be unkind.

No matter how we act, or how others act toward us, life will give us the exact lessons that we need to experience at any time. There is no need to fear not having enough lessons, or having too many.

 

[Milfoil]

It's not about being unkind or unpleasant, but about accepting balanced reality.

Whether people/souls signed up for anything particular in this life before being born, I cannot say nor prove. These beliefs are popular in the west since the 60s but not held by all cultures.

It's not really a debate about whether one person has had a difficult life or another a relatively easy one (none of us can assess or judge what anyone else's life has been based on our own frame of reference) but about the very recent (last 20 years or so) trend of spiritual beliefs which lean towards the pleasant, easy, painless and sweet that simply doesn't reflect the truth of life.