Value and Worth

[Magicus Textor]

It's not about being unkind or unpleasant, but about accepting balanced reality.

Whether people/souls signed up for anything particular in this life before being born, I cannot say nor prove. These beliefs are popular in the west since the 60s but not held by all cultures.

It's not really a debate about whether one person has had a difficult life or another a relatively easy one (none of us can assess or judge what anyone else's life has been based on our own frame of reference) but about the very recent (last 20 years or so) trend of spiritual beliefs which lean towards the pleasant, easy, painless and sweet that simply doesn't reflect the truth of life.

I guess I just don't see it. I have a lot of friends on the spiritual path who are working through their issues, their pain, etc, or who ahve already done so. I know relatively few if any people who deny that they should go through such things.

 

[Milfoil]

I guess I just don't see it. I have a lot of friends on the spiritual path who are working through their issues, their pain, etc, or who ahve already done so. I know relatively few if any people who deny that they should go through such things.

I don't understand you? Are you saying that some people you know have achieved perfection?

What is it that you feel is being denied? Honestly, I don't understand what you are getting at here.

 

[linnie]

-------Deleted-------

 

[Magicus Textor]

I don't understand you? Are you saying that some people you know have achieved perfection?

We are all already perfect, so it depends on your perspective.

What is it that you feel is being denied? Honestly, I don't understand what you are getting at here.

You said that popular spirituality has been focusing less and less on pain and hardship. I was saying that nearly everyone I know on the spiritual path does recognize the value of such and work with it extensively.

 

[wildchilde]

this is an interesting thread and has me sort of going around in circles as I can see many sides of this issue. In all honesty I don't know that I (or anyone else) can truly have "answers" for these deeper mysteries, as ThunderWolf so well defined this, for anyone but our own selves. So rather than try to give "answers" I would just like to make a few comments along the way.

Why is it that this timeless story which has echos across the world from thousands of years back and which reflects the true nature of spiritual or soul growth is now being forgotten in new-age philosophies? Why do we no longer value the harsh lesson or the difficult task? Why is it all about feeling nice, never saying anything that isn't pleasant and always being sweet and smiling? This is NOT how the Universe works, nor has it ever been.

First, just as "devil's advocate" I have to (rhetorically) ask, "how do you know that this is NOT how the universe works?" Recorded history on earth is only about 5000 years old. Most religions/spiritual paths have a concept of "as above, so below", yet we don't generally operate from that concept here on earth...We, as humankind, have shaped and created this world that we live in and each individual believes (at least in some respect) that we are the center of the universe. So perhaps, the universe is only working the way we believe it should work (out of our own ego/ super-ego) and we are blind to how it actually should work and/or has worked for the aeons of time unrecorded by humans. And if we did truly allow our world to be shaped in the "as above, so below" paradigm we would not feel it necessary to have a harsh world in which to learn and "grow".

When I look at nature, I see how it deals with droughts in the summer, harsh winters, floods, lightning strikes and fires, etc. We are a part of nature too (though many would consider themselves above it), and so we too experience tough times. I don't think it is to punish, it is just the law of nature; both pleasant and unpleasant exist in it.

For me personally, what bodhiseed has said here is closest to actually answering your question as to "why" we are getting further away from these traditional stories...we live in an over-culture (no matter where we are in the world) that believes mankind has "conquered" nature (and for that matter, believes that nature herself is something to be conquered). Even if our personal cultures do not teach these things, we see it in the world around us everyday. The great majority of us are completely disconnected from our food sources, we are geared to the "industrial" society living and working to gain more "stuff", and we are taught that we are better for it all. And often taught that we are better than others who either don't buy into this way of being, or just plain have less than we do.

We do not as a world society appreciate and nurture the earth. Somehow we have convinced ourselves though that we have "dominion" over her and we can survive just fine without her, thank you very much. Of course, then things like Katrina, Sandy, earthquakes, and tsunamis happen. And we congratulate ourselves for "recovering" quickly, mourning our dead, helping our injured, and moving on as quickly as possible to shopping at the mall and refilling our bottled waters, etc. The largest lessons of all we continue to ignore. We fail time and time again to realize that 1) everything is cyclical, and 2) She does not need us, we need her, and things are much smoother in life when we respect and operate within the rhythms set by her cycles.

It's not really a debate about whether one person has had a difficult life or another a relatively easy one (none of us can assess or judge what anyone else's life has been based on our own frame of reference) but about the very recent (last 20 years or so) trend of spiritual beliefs which lean towards the pleasant, easy, painless and sweet that simply doesn't reflect the truth of life.

So, if I am understanding your ultimate question here (added emphasis by me), you are wondering why current religious/spiritual trends neglect to teach from the "harshness" of life in favor of teachings that perhaps seem to make life easier or less painful. Well, first off, I think that many religions/spiritual paths have seen their numbers rapidly declining in the past 50 years and most have come to understand that if they keep preaching fear the younger generations are not going to listen or attend services. So, in that sense, it is about self preservation of the belief systems adapting to the current potential followers.

Second, I think many people along the way have realized for themselves that we are ALL a part of G-d and as such, as Magicus Textor stated, we are already perfect. I think we do tend to "talk ourselves into" believing suffering is necessary to learn and grow...but what if all we really have to do is LET GO, stop listening to the ego inside ourselves that says we must suffer.

In all honesty, the generation that is coming up now, I would say under 25 years of age, a majority of them really have not been raised to believe that suffering is necessary, and therefore these traditional stories that speak of suffering and the journey of the spirit actually do not apply to them and their experience of life. Whether or not that is a good thing, I suppose we will see when they are in their 40's and 50's etc and are raising/teaching their children and grandchildren. Maybe the whole point of all of this is to move us into this "new age" where we do not rely on suffering, but upon peace, to be our teacher. Or perhaps there will be a back lash as you seem to suggest in which we revert back to churches/spiritual paths using torture, humiliation, and fear to create the need for the suffering/healing paradigm.

Yes, often she is dirty, ugly and unpleasant (ie she lives outside the norms and social conventions of polite society), she challenges us to accept the uncomfortable truths about ourselves and about life. The hero or heroine who accepts her, is accepting the difficult truths and learning from them. So when someone knocks you down a peg or two, if you understand this metaphor, you will accept the old woman in the words that were so cutting and see the harsh truth that reveals windows into our own soul. After being accepted with civility, the old hag usually gives the hero a magical key, knowledge or gift which helps him/her further on the journey. The gift of wisdom through knowing ourselves!

So, I admit, this thread has been very broad and sometimes confusing to "tease out" the different concepts being discussed. On the one hand, the questions and the answers are individual in nature, such as this quote above, and on the other hand, there are questions and answers/comments regarding belief systems that guide and shape the "reality" of the masses. I already commented on belief systems and the concept of suffering.

In this quote above, you go into the hero/heroine's journey for the "meat and potatoes" of the quest. In the tradition of the story, confronting and accepting the "old woman" is not about suffering, it is about dropping the Ego and as you point out cutting to the truth of our own soul. This does not necessarily have to be a harsh lesson, but can be if we are resistant to the reality of our own being. I also wouldn't classify the act of acceptance as a matter of civility, but instead a matter of humility. It is only after we accept OURSELVES (flaws and all) through the acceptance of the wisdom of the Elder/Teacher that we can go on with our journey and return to the community with the wisdom of acceptance we have gained. Only then, do we find if the hero/heroine is truly successful in the quest when we see whether or not society accepts the gifts of his/her journey.

Yes, these traditional stories will always have value, however, if WE do not teach them, if WE do not tell them, if WE do not live them then we cannot expect the younger generations to remember them or relate to them. We also have to be open to the fact that for them, the characters and story backdrops must often be changed for the Hero/Heroine's Journey to be of relevance to their current lives. There are many examples of this, but the one that comes to mind right now is the story/movie Oh Brother Where Art Thou which is a reworking of Homer's epic The Odyssey.

I think we are able to learn from difficult and joyful experiences but to believe that life will always wonderful is naive. There is dark as well as light and perhaps it is how we use these different experiences to help us grow which is the most important thing.

I agree with Flaxen here that we are able to learn from both types of experiences. I know I have learned a great deal from Joy throughout life, and also learned (at least in some instances) how to use my times of suffering for the good of others. I do think though that we all have a tendency to at times get "stuck" in one or the other mode...perhaps we have experienced a deep wound that keeps us stuck in the loop of feeling the pain of that suffering, or perhaps we have experienced a great high of a spiritual epiphany that brings so much bliss that we get stuck in the loop of trying to hold onto this joyful feeling and refuse to move forward in life. The darkness and the light are part of the cycle, we see it everyday with the rising and setting of the sun, and perhaps our ultimate lesson is to grow with the passing of each day with humility, humbleness, and gratefulness that the cycle continues.

 

[Milfoil]

Oh I doubt there are any perfect answers, just our own perceptions based on the writings and musings of others in the past.

First, just as "devil's advocate" I have to (rhetorically) ask, "how do you know that this is NOT how the universe works?" Recorded history on earth is only about 5000 years old. Most religions/spiritual paths have a concept of "as above, so below", yet we don't generally operate from that concept here on earth

Well, not quite, petroglyphs and much archeology is way older than 5000 years (up to 50'000 years) and shows us that our distant ancestors did not believe in as above so below, such concepts seem to be Abrahamic in basis (Heaven, Earth, Hell) yet this in itself is a patriarchal misunderstanding of the earlier 3 worlds belief of upper, middle and lower worlds. In the older system there is no concept of as above, so below. The reason I say that this is not how it works is because we are part of nature and nature doesn't work that way. In no person's life on this planet has there ever been only growth without storm, decay, loss or drought. Even on the equator where seasons are not present, there are other challenges. Nature itself is where we are at, here and now whether we are divorced from it in contemporary life or not.

So perhaps, the universe is only working the way we believe it should work (out of our own ego/ super-ego) and we are blind to how it actually should work and/or has worked for the aeons of time unrecorded by humans. And if we did truly allow our world to be shaped in the "as above, so below" paradigm we would not feel it necessary to have a harsh world in which to learn and "grow".

This then suggests that the Universe is here for humans who are getting it wrong yet all other forms of life, plant and animal are here too, they seem to work within the hoop of life, not as a framework for our super-ego.

For me personally, what bodhiseed has said here is closest to actually answering your question as to "why" we are getting further away from these traditional stories...we live in an over-culture (no matter where we are in the world) that believes mankind has "conquered" nature (and for that matter, believes that nature herself is something to be conquered). Even if our personal cultures do not teach these things, we see it in the world around us everyday. The great majority of us are completely disconnected from our food sources, we are geared to the "industrial" society living and working to gain more "stuff", and we are taught that we are better for it all. And often taught that we are better than others who either don't buy into this way of being, or just plain have less than we do.

Yes, taught by media often and church alike who consider that we are above or separate from nature. Again, it's a predominantly middle/far East belief framework which has dominated so long that little is left to oppose it.

The largest lessons of all we continue to ignore. We fail time and time again to realize that 1) everything is cyclical, and 2) She does not need us, we need her, and things are much smoother in life when we respect and operate within the rhythms set by her cycles.

YES, this is precisely what I have been getting at, there are cycles in everything it seems (from observation) from life and death, through night and day, seasons, planets - you name it. Dark and light, not just light.

So, if I am understanding your ultimate question here (added emphasis by me), you are wondering why current religious/spiritual trends neglect to teach from the "harshness" of life in favor of teachings that perhaps seem to make life easier or less painful. Well, first off, I think that many religions/spiritual paths have seen their numbers rapidly declining in the past 50 years and most have come to understand that if they keep preaching fear the younger generations are not going to listen or attend services. So, in that sense, it is about self preservation of the belief systems adapting to the current potential followers.

This is a very interesting point and has a great deal of merit. Yes, in the past, most people did lead harsher, more (literally) 'down to earth' lives where a great deal of effort went into staying alive, never mind comfort. Death was ever present in all people's lives. Now we live longer, expect to live pain free and for doctors to cure us or keep us comfortable. It's not a bad thing, just different from nature where death and pain are part of the cycles. We have learned to delay and deflect. Our lives are comfortable and easy in comparison so our existing beliefs are changing to reflect that. People want to see how Archangel Michael can guard and comfort them, not how he will wield his great sword!

Second, I think many people along the way have realized for themselves that we are ALL a part of G-d and as such, as Magicus Textor stated, we are already perfect. I think we do tend to "talk ourselves into" believing suffering is necessary to learn and grow...but what if all we really have to do is LET GO, stop listening to the ego inside ourselves that says we must suffer.

Again, there is a confusion here, if we are all interconnected and part of the Creator, this is very different from being part of the Abrahamic God, G_d, Jehova etc. The fundamental concept of what defines the Creator is different depending on the belief system and it alters what being part of the Creator is considered to mean or represent.

On the one hand, the concept of being perfect (ie made in God's image) is again an Abrahamic concept, not shared universally outside those faiths from the Middle East, so not understood as such by everyone. On the other hand, the mix up of other Eastern beliefs in reincarnation with the Abrahamic beliefs then would defeat the purpose of being perfect since the ideas of Karma over lifetimes, being born to learn specific lessons, become closer to perfect then would not make sense. This is one of the problems with trying to fit it all together, none of the religions have it all worked out.

In all honesty, the generation that is coming up now, I would say under 25 years of age, a majority of them really have not been raised to believe that suffering is necessary, and therefore these traditional stories that speak of suffering and the journey of the spirit actually do not apply to them and their experience of life.

Yet! At such a young age, how can they know or have life experience that gives them the frame of reference that can offer that understanding? The hero's quest stories are about just that, the naive, often ego-filled youth who learns by experience. The ego is necessary or he would never set out on the quest and humility comes along the way (hopefully). Aspects of the stories are still around, they can be found in movies like Spiderman and many, many more but this comfortable life seems to be leading to higher and higher rates of mental illness, depression and anxiety because people have no real sense of their own worth and they feel disconnected to everything (that is essential to life).

Whether or not that is a good thing, I suppose we will see when they are in their 40's and 50's etc and are raising/teaching their children and grandchildren. Maybe the whole point of all of this is to move us into this "new age" where we do not rely on suffering, but upon peace, to be our teacher. Or perhaps there will be a back lash as you seem to suggest in which we revert back to churches/spiritual paths using torture, humiliation, and fear to create the need for the suffering/healing paradigm.

Now I never said that teachings should rely upon suffering or even hinted at it. The whole question centres around the balance between both sides of the coin, accepting both, welcoming both, understanding that both are necessary, not simply focussing on the pleasant and easy which is what we are seeing today.

In the tradition of the story, confronting and accepting the "old woman" is not about suffering, it is about dropping the Ego and as you point out cutting to the truth of our own soul. This does not necessarily have to be a harsh lesson, but can be if we are resistant to the reality of our own being. I also wouldn't classify the act of acceptance as a matter of civility, but instead a matter of humility. It is only after we accept OURSELVES (flaws and all) through the acceptance of the wisdom of the Elder/Teacher that we can go on with our journey and return to the community with the wisdom of acceptance we have gained. Only then, do we find if the hero/heroine is truly successful in the quest when we see whether or not society accepts the gifts of his/her journey.

Yes, these traditional stories will always have value, however, if WE do not teach them, if WE do not tell them, if WE do not live them then we cannot expect the younger generations to remember them or relate to them. We also have to be open to the fact that for them, the characters and story backdrops must often be changed for the Hero/Heroine's Journey to be of relevance to their current lives. There are many examples of this, but the one that comes to mind right now is the story/movie Oh Brother Where Art Thou which is a reworking of Homer's epic The Odyssey.

Yes, the story is being told and re-told, perhaps we still need to be told it in as many ways as possible? From the literal initiation walks by Aboriginal youngsters and old myths like Baba-Yaga, through the bible story of Jesus or Mithrais and individual cultural myths to modern day media and films like that, the journey is played out with the cycles intact, the dark and light both present. I can't see how one could even make a movie about only the light - how would that have a story line?

I agree with Flaxen here that we are able to learn from both types of experiences. I know I have learned a great deal from Joy throughout life, and also learned (at least in some instances) how to use my times of suffering for the good of others. I do think though that we all have a tendency to at times get "stuck" in one or the other mode...perhaps we have experienced a deep wound that keeps us stuck in the loop of feeling the pain of that suffering, or perhaps we have experienced a great high of a spiritual epiphany that brings so much bliss that we get stuck in the loop of trying to hold onto this joyful feeling and refuse to move forward in life. The darkness and the light are part of the cycle, we see it everyday with the rising and setting of the sun, and perhaps our ultimate lesson is to grow with the passing of each day with humility, humbleness, and gratefulness that the cycle continues.

Yes, this is just what I believe too, that both aspects and all shades inbetween are part of the Universe we live in. We are a tiny aspect of it and, as such, cannot exist outside what the Universe is. Nature all around us is an amazing teacher both without and within if we choose to let go and accept all aspects, not cherry pick the pleasant bits only.

 

[Magicus Textor]

On the one hand, the concept of being perfect (ie made in God's image) is again an Abrahamic concept, not shared universally outside those faiths from the Middle East, so not understood as such by everyone. On the other hand, the mix up of other Eastern beliefs in reincarnation with the Abrahamic beliefs then would defeat the purpose of being perfect since the ideas of Karma over lifetimes, being born to learn specific lessons, become closer to perfect then would not make sense. This is one of the problems with trying to fit it all together, none of the religions have it all worked out.

I don't think you understood what I meant when I said we are all already perfect. I did not say that we are made in the "perfect image of God"— I don't believe in the Abrahamic God per se. I simply mean that, we are all Perfection itself, and can be none other. Anything else that "appears" to happen is simply ego games and our own nightmares.

My personal opinion is that we have to be very careful to speak on one thing being true and another being false. For instance, saying that as above so below is a falsity because that's how nature works. This concept is an occult teaching that's been around for quite a while, and seems to prove itself for the people who believe in it. It ties in with the macrocosm/microcosm concept, that what is out there is a reflection of what is within, and what is changed within is changed out there— that the world itself is nothing more than a projection.

Our ancestor's understanding of the Universe may have been good, but certainly we as a species have gained a deeper understanding and grasp on Truth over time. A thousand years ago, people could not speak of "energy", but now that is the primary way that many of us think, somewhat thanks to advances in science. Does it mean that it is not true just because it is new? Certainly not— only that it is a new understanding of a very old Truth. Our ancestors probably could not talk about particle entanglement.

 

[Debra]

I hope this isn't tangential to the point.

I find it irritating when people suggest they are enlightened, or that my spiritual teacher over there (*points to spiritual teacher in flowing robes*) is enlightened, and there's no evidence of pain on their path. Suffering a hangnail, a bad hair day, and being stood up for a date do not count as "pain" that advances spiritual development.

I know that suffering seems so subjective--one person's sadness is another's year of black-night-of-the-soul mourning. But still I have a sneaking suspicion that there is something like an "objective" scale of suffering.

I am positive that some people have spiritual talents or gifts, whatever you call it, from sheer luck or some universal design that has nothing to do with their moral worthiness. I'm thinking of the holy fool types, for example people who can manipulate or channel energy without having "done" anything to "deserve" the ability.

This irritates me too.

I don't know if I feel this way because in reality there "must" be pain and gifts "should" come to the deserving, or if I'm just emotionally immature.

As for the work and struggle to get to something worthwhile--a common modern-day analogy is physical fitness. People certainly know that having a strong, supple body requires lots of work and pain.

 

[Milfoil]

I don't think you understood what I meant when I said we are all already perfect. I did not say that we are made in the "perfect image of God"— I don't believe in the Abrahamic God per se. I simply mean that, we are all Perfection itself, and can be none other. Anything else that "appears" to happen is simply ego games and our own nightmares.

Ah, I see what you mean. It's not my personal belief (after having had children, seeing and experiencing them from birth etc) but I do know what you are saying. Our own ego games and nightmares may be part of it but the concepts of perfection and imperfection are, in themselves ego constructs to a degree so taking that off the table, we are left with just people, animals, plants, rocks, elements . . . .

My personal opinion is that we have to be very careful to speak on one thing being true and another being false. For instance, saying that as above so below is a falsity because that's how nature works. This concept is an occult teaching that's been around for quite a while, and seems to prove itself for the people who believe in it. It ties in with the macrocosm/microcosm concept, that what is out there is a reflection of what is within, and what is changed within is changed out there— that the world itself is nothing more than a projection.

Our ancestor's understanding of the Universe may have been good, but certainly we as a species have gained a deeper understanding and grasp on Truth over time.

Hmmm, truth - what is the truth? I am reminded of the book/film Rashomon. Truth has an uncanny way of unravelling when we try to pin it down and often depends greatly on the viewpoint of the individual. What a scientist calls an atom, a shaman calls a bud on a tree or a dot and a wavy line but the same fundamental understanding is present. I'm not sure we have gained a deeper understanding over time, just lots of different and often confusing ones. Like every age, we believe that our science and beliefs are proving themselves yet if medical science was a great truth, it could cure by treating the cause rather than crisis control and symptomatic aleviation (again going back to the need to not be uncomfortable). If psychiatrists understood the truth, then we would be able to cure all mental illness, yet what we see is the opposite of that in western society at least.

A thousand years ago, people could not speak of "energy", but now that is the primary way that many of us think, somewhat thanks to advances in science. Does it mean that it is not true just because it is new? Certainly not— only that it is a new understanding of a very old Truth. Our ancestors probably could not talk about particle entanglement.

I don't know whether they could or couldn't. In fact, 30'000 years ago I believe they could understand concepts such as energy but put in different language. Petroglyps for example seem to suggest that concept of connection and energy in many ways as do paintings of halos around saints heads, rays of light from above etc. I'm not sure the argument of our ancestors not perceiving energy in different forms and that concept being new is fully rounded but I get your point about new advances in understanding scientifically. As you say, many of these advances support what Shamans have being saying for thousands of years. Few of us can talk about particle entanglement and even those on the cutting edge of particle physics are re-defining understanding on an almost daily basis so we cannot use what we currently think to define truth since it changes so frequently as new concepts and proofs become apparent through experiment.

Getting back to the question of all things making up the whole rather than a single aspect, IF we are all part of a greater whole, aspects of a creator who is present in all things and all things are, interconnected on infinite levels of conception and existence, then perfection would be the acceptance of all things would it not?

 

[Milfoil]

As for the work and struggle to get to something worthwhile--a common modern-day analogy is physical fitness. People certainly know that having a strong, supple body requires lots of work and pain.

It doesn't seem to allow us to live one day longer either. Hearts fail just as quickly for runners as they do for armchair gurus.