linnie
Yes, I believe that is so.perhaps our ultimate lesson is to grow with the passing of each day with humility, humbleness, and gratefulness that the cycle continues.
Value and Worth
Magicus Textor
In Perfection would be the acceptance of all things, yes. Though on a dualistic level down here, if I look and someone is not being accepting, that is perfect, too. Heck, if I am not being accepting of something, that is perfect. It is all just background noise.
But, to rest in the state of Perfection does imply that all is accepted equally.
Richard
What you are saying is true, MT, but the mindset of most readers of this forum, and most people in the world, for that matter, precludes a monistic perspective on reality. Of course, it's a bit lonely up here in the monistic universe. I can join the herd if I wish, but there is always the hazard of stepping into a turd.
Milfoil
The dualism would seem to be in the concept of a division (up there, down here) or a belief of separation which depends upon the origins of said belief.
Since everyone is, from birth, sensible of their perceived individuality, and we all have free will, then the freedom of anyone to choose for or against accepting a belief, well, that is their prerogative. However when general consensus or increasingly accepted teachings lay claim to a dubious 'truth' which defies reason and is based not on clear evidence of all things in our existence but instead on ease, preference, half understood ideas and mish-mashed concepts then does the idea of accepting all human actions as being perfection have any validity or is it not a case of accepting that all 'aspects' of the Universe/multiverse, rather than actions of humans, hold a key to the whole?
Magicus Textor
Magicus Textor
So I "should not" be allowed / it is not within my prerogative to hold a notion separate and apart from that of general consensus? What is it to you? It is perfect, whether I choose to believe that the Earth is round or that it is flat— whether I choose to believe in God, no God, or the flying spaghetti monster. It is perfect because it is so, it is what is at this moment. What I believe, think, speak, or do at any moment is exactly what should be happening right now for me, and will teach me the exact lessons I need to learn right at this moment. The moment we choose how reality "should" be is the moment that suffering enters our consciousness. The moment we come to terms and fully accept all that is, because it is, is the moment that suffering leaves and we are left with unconditional Love for all that is, because it is. We embrace all of reality, whether or not it agrees with the ways of nature, or whether it is "easy" or "hard", or whether it is "pleasant" or "unpleasant." "Good" and "bad" disappear into one undifferentiated, perfect whole.
wildchilde
Milfoil said:
Let me clarify here, my point in mentioning the recorded history of mankind (dating to approx. 5000 BC in the written language Cuneiform; or if you wish, to approx. 30,000 years in the symbolic language of petroglyphs) is to open the mind to the fact that to the best of our scientific knowledge right now (at least according to wiki LOL) the Earth and our Solar System is 4.6 +/- Billion years old, and our Universe is 13.75+/- Billion years old. No matter how you slice it, 5000 years to 50,000 years to even 100 million years….NONE of this compares to the actual age and cycles that have been present, so I don’t believe we can honestly say that ONLY the cycle we know and see “presently” (within these lengthy time frames) is the ONLY way “it works”. Can you imagine what cycle existed before the “Big Bang”, I can’t but it doesn’t mean it didn’t “work”. Many people right now are talking about the end of a very large cycle and the beginning of another coming up in December, lots of people “think” they know or can imagine what it will be like, look like, feel like, but the reality is we really have no idea. Maybe that cycle will show us all what a world without life/suffering/death/decay/rebirth is like or maybe it won’t. Maybe it will just simply be different, or maybe it will just be more of the same.
Milfoil said:
To address your comments regarding “Abrahamic” beliefs, firstly, I’m not sure whose ancestors you are referring to in the first quote, but I assure you that my direct ancestors (tribal people of North American continent) whose belief system and cosmological understandings are many thousands of years older than the “Abrahamic” system most certainly did and do have a concept of “as above, so below” and it has absolutely nothing to do with the concepts of ‘heaven and hell’ but instead the understandings of our physical manifestations and spiritual purposes here on this planet from our own Creation stories. I don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes but to me personally the Abrahamic traditions or no more or less “myth” than any other Creation stories from around the world, as a matter of fact it has always ruffled my feathers that many people refer to these “Abrahamic” beliefs (writings) as The Truth, and all others as ‘only’ myth (oral/symbolic). All along history we see that the “bits and pieces” of others beliefs are woven into another and the Abrahamic traditions are no different. In the end, it is all the re-telling of the one story (our origins and purpose) no matter how it is clothed and no matter who the actors are.
When I speak of “perfection” and “oneness” I am not speaking of the Abrahamic traditions, I am speaking of the thread of the Creation “Myth” that crosses through a majority of belief systems (although as you point out, is conceptualized fundamentally different depending on the culture and religious/spiritual belief systems in question) that we are part and parcel of whatever name you wish to give the origin of our beingness. We ARE“it/he/she”; we are a part of the whole and the whole is complete within us. And in this sense we are “perfect”. My People never had a concept of “original sin” and therefore are thought to be born “perfect” (not as an image of God, Goddess, G-d, Creator, etc, but AS ‘that’, a part and the whole), it is our existence in this world as human beings that changes our perception of ourselves and others from that understanding.
Debra said:
I understand where you are coming from with this thought/feeling, and probably if we are all honest with ourselves and each other, we would all admit to having thought/felt the same thing at one point or another about someone. On another level of understanding though, it is my personal experience that most often when we meet someone who “appears” to have had no pain/suffering/struggle, it is only our perception of them and not the reality. Often those who are the happiest in life have had the most painful of circumstances to work through. I think that this understanding is also where Milfoil is coming from with her line of questioning, the realization that without the dark we do not appreciate the light. My words in this thread are only meant to take it one step further with the realization that just because this is what we “know” in the present cycle does not necessarily mean that we cannot exist outside of that paradigm given different circumstances/perceptions…
Milfoil said:
I feel like I should clarify that when I spoke previously of those currently under the age of 24, I in no way meant to state or imply that individual human beings under the age of 24 don’t or cannot know suffering. My comment was meant to clarify a “generational age” at the present time…those people living today under the age of 24 being “old souls in young human bodies”, if you will, are as a group I think much closer to the shift in cycles that is about to occur so I really think a lot of them know at least on some level that they are here on this planet at this time for specific reasons related to this shift so in that respect they really don’t need to experience suffering in the same way as we did/do/have to learn our life lessons. What this actually means, I personally have no idea…does it mean they will ultimately suffer for the fate of the world (as the story of Jesus goes), does it mean they will learn and/or teach us a new way of existence that does not rely on suffering as part of the paradigm (as that old song “Age of Aquarius” suggests—this song btw is a great example of a story of only Light), will they “learn” to suffer just as we always have, or will it be something else entirely beyond our current ability to comprehend. This is why these things are called the Deeper Mysteries.
In regard to the last sentence of your statement in the above quoted paragraph, I agree with you but only to a point…I do not believe that it is our “comfortable life” that is causing these feelings of distress in our youth…I actually think it is quite the opposite in the sense that whether they “see” it, they certainly “feel” that this so-called comfortable life is nothing but a façade, an ego-construct, a “nothingness” that gives them nothing to pin hopes and dreams of a future on, and the despair stems from feeling and/or knowing that there is no future “as we know it” waiting for them. The fears that our youth today have go far beyond the fear of “the old woman in the woods who will eat you”…my 15 year old step daughter for example, literally, believes that a zombie apocalypse will occur in her lifetime. Why should she fear one ‘crazy old woman’ when she believes an entire world is going to turn against one another and eat each other for lunch. Of course in my “wisdom” it seems a ridiculous notion fed by a media blitz on such silliness, but if we really stop and think about this isn’t the “Rapture” that is believed in (and actively worked toward) by a huge population of this planet a form of the same idea? Isn’t the idea that we are nearing a shift in consciousness that may or may not include the massive destruction of earth’s populations and land mass another version? Isn’t the existence of global warming, the hole in the ozone layer, and germ warfare part of this same notion? Who is to say a “zombie apocalypse” of some form or fashion won’t occur? And isn’t this just one more take on the same old story? In every zombie movie and tv show ever made, the “survivors” (the hero/heroine’s) not only suffer and struggle to fight to survive, they also attempt to heal not only themselves but try to find ways to heal those who have been “afflicted” by whatever caused them to become zombies because they recognize that the “zombies” were once and always will be related to them even if the zombies themselves don’t understand that!
linnie said:
Thanks, linnie. It is nice to know I am not “alone”
I didn’t spell it out in that comment, but I feel like you picked up on what I was inferring.On the same note for anyone who is interested, by “accident” around 3 a.m. I found an extremely informative (and long) youtube video about the Hermetic understandings of everything (and then some) that we have been discussing here. I am posting it in its own thread so as not to derail this conversation, even if you don’t wish to watch all of the videos, if you listen to the first 30 minutes of Part 1 you will hear described in clear and easily understandable ways many of the concepts we have discussed. Note: You will also hear described the Hermetic understanding of how the myths of the world (specifically the Bible myths) have the deeper mysteries encoded within them, so if that thought offends you in any way these videos may not be for you. As a tribal person, it is fascinating to me to hear these things and the many similarities of my own traditional teachings (sans the Bible stuff of course LOL). I really like when he says something to the effect of 'all religions/spiritual beliefs are astrotheological' and I think that is true.
Milfoil
I'm struggling to find how you came to that conclusion based on what I wrote but if I have inadvertently and unintentionally indicated that then I apologise. I never wrote that nor intended it. In fact holding ideas and beliefs which may differ from consensus is wonderful and how the world seems to change and grow.
I see your point and yet still this is about the individual, what you believe and the actions you take. There is a subtle but very real difference between the path that is seen as separate and individual where everything happening is right for that person at that time and the acceptance that everything is ok simply because it is how it is meant to be. The latter suggests an apathy towards all things and no need to challenge.
While I agree that talking about what 'should' be does indeed seem to cause suffering in some, this is talking about the individual and not the evidence of the Universe around us. Suffering is caused in many ways surely not simply by how we perceive things should preferably be in our own existence? It is absolutely possible to accept a hurricane and how devastating it has been while still suffering the effects of it, not simply because we wish it were different or think it should be otherwise but because we have no option but to cope with the effects.
But accepting it doesn't necessarily stop the suffering. Accepting that I have an illness doesn't stop the physical pain of it and accepting the pain doesn't take it away, it simply allows us to cope. As a volunteer at a hospice, this is something all too clear. We are talking about different sufferings here I guess but it feels too simplistic to try to boil it all down to a single point when life is so complex and we are part of that life, as you point out, for whatever perfect reason.
As much as you, I and many others would love to find an elegant and simply equation which would define the entire Universe, I fear it is not that simple and perhaps not meant to be so? I don't know but the discussion is good.
Milfoil
Hi wildchilde
I see what you mean and agree to an extent but the point you made was supported by only written evidence and since scholars are still debating the finer points of ancient Hebrew, a metaphoric language which is still spoken today, yet cannot gain consensus due to changes over time etc, then we cannot rely entirely upon written evidence alone.
No, that's sort of what I was getting at but in the same way, we (you and I, here now, not our ancestors or those who come after us) are present here, in this time frame so we can only go on what we have experience of.
That's it, that's the thing - 'maybe', and as long as we base our beliefs on maybe, we cannot base them on anything tangible. If Magicus Textor is right and everything is perfect just as it is, then right here, right now is what we are given to base our lives and beliefs on. There is nothing stopping anyone from wishing, daydreaming or hoping that it can be a different way but then we get into the trap of is it perfect the way it is or 'should' we change it?
This is the world I live in and interact in, make decisions in and believe in. It is a beautiful and terrible cycle which I try to learn from and so even through altered states of consciousness and perceptions beyond the body's 5 senses give wonderful insights and new experiences, it seems strange to only base one's beliefs on one aspect of that whole life experience and effectively shut off all the rest.
No, nor do I, I wasn't aware that I had indicated anyone's ancestors but then this is a long thread and I loose track. I think we are essentially agreeing here.
You are right, it was wrong of me to try to reduce such a wide field of possibilities down to a single reason. The new stories our children are being fed are impacting on them just as the old ones did on us.
And every age (in the West at least) seems to have had it's own reasons to believe they were living in the end of times, flood, plague, invasion etc. We seem to be no different. Funny but most other cultures see life as cyclic just like the Myans who are so much in the news right now for the end of one cycle and the beginning of another (even though their own culture has pretty much died out this last cycle). The cycles seem to stem from the observations of everything in existence which is sort of what I was getting at by wishing to consider the whole rather than just one aspect of it.
Perhaps there is a difference between the concept of perfect and that of appropriate. Perfect suggests an unalterable state of stasis whereas appropriate runs more along the lines of being right for or at the time/situation. Oooh, time, now there is a factor that changes everything.
What a cracking discussion.
I see what you mean and agree to an extent but the point you made was supported by only written evidence and since scholars are still debating the finer points of ancient Hebrew, a metaphoric language which is still spoken today, yet cannot gain consensus due to changes over time etc, then we cannot rely entirely upon written evidence alone.
No, that's sort of what I was getting at but in the same way, we (you and I, here now, not our ancestors or those who come after us) are present here, in this time frame so we can only go on what we have experience of.
That's it, that's the thing - 'maybe', and as long as we base our beliefs on maybe, we cannot base them on anything tangible. If Magicus Textor is right and everything is perfect just as it is, then right here, right now is what we are given to base our lives and beliefs on. There is nothing stopping anyone from wishing, daydreaming or hoping that it can be a different way but then we get into the trap of is it perfect the way it is or 'should' we change it?
This is the world I live in and interact in, make decisions in and believe in. It is a beautiful and terrible cycle which I try to learn from and so even through altered states of consciousness and perceptions beyond the body's 5 senses give wonderful insights and new experiences, it seems strange to only base one's beliefs on one aspect of that whole life experience and effectively shut off all the rest.
No, nor do I, I wasn't aware that I had indicated anyone's ancestors but then this is a long thread and I loose track. I think we are essentially agreeing here.
You are right, it was wrong of me to try to reduce such a wide field of possibilities down to a single reason. The new stories our children are being fed are impacting on them just as the old ones did on us.
And every age (in the West at least) seems to have had it's own reasons to believe they were living in the end of times, flood, plague, invasion etc. We seem to be no different. Funny but most other cultures see life as cyclic just like the Myans who are so much in the news right now for the end of one cycle and the beginning of another (even though their own culture has pretty much died out this last cycle). The cycles seem to stem from the observations of everything in existence which is sort of what I was getting at by wishing to consider the whole rather than just one aspect of it.
Perhaps there is a difference between the concept of perfect and that of appropriate. Perfect suggests an unalterable state of stasis whereas appropriate runs more along the lines of being right for or at the time/situation. Oooh, time, now there is a factor that changes everything.
What a cracking discussion.
Debra
