Value and Worth

[Zephyros]

I have been reading this thread for several days now, unable to really formulate my own thoughts on the subject, but I will try as best as I can. I have often wondered at the cult-like status the New Age "feel good" mentality has reached, and I fail to see any real spirituality in such a concept. Asking the universe to reward you for your good mood is actually the opposite of spirituality, it is fact a very disturbing "dark side," and I'll try to explain why, although I will probably fail.

But first, if we are talking about the concept of "as above so below," to me it does not mean that there is a separation between the two, but that the two really are one and the same. Thelema teaches that the infinite point and the infinite expanse are merely different names for identical concepts. Even if we look at it through Kabbalistic doctrines, the entirety of creation is all held inside the abstract potentiality; all perceived notions of separation are inherently false. I do agree with Magicus Textor that all things are perfect, as the sum of all things is Zero, and all we can do is perceive different facets and illusions of that primordial zero.

Going on to the concept of Love, I think this is one of the most misrepresented concepts ever. Much of this comes from the teachings of Jesus, loving thy neighbor as thyself, etc. While this is good advice, I also think that it is phenomenally bad advice, as there is nothing wrong with feeling bad, angry, sad, jealous, covetous, or any of the so-called negative feelings, and union can be found within them as within any of the positive ones, as they are all reflections of the same Zero I mentioned earlier. One need not purge oneself of any "lower" feelings in order to reach enlightenment, in my opinion, but rather learn to use them and their (forgive the word) energy to one's advantage. Love is, to me, the attainment of union with the universe, but in a very abstract way. Rather than divorcing oneself of negativity, Love is the perception that negative and positive are really the same thing.

In the course of magickal work one must often focus energies on something or other, and these energies can be phallic (as in positively charged and aggressive) rather than the (symbolic) feminine negatively charged accepting ones. Any disregard for these energies is akin to impotent magickal masturbation.

To me, any spiritual discussion that defines suffering as subjective is... kind of invalid, in my opinion. If you have disposable income to purchase Tarot decks you are already better off than most of the world, and your suffering is by definition less acute than someone who's mother just died of starvation. No offence, but if you fear a zombie apocalypse occurring at some unknown date rather than gunmen killing you in five minutes, you are suffering less. Does this mean any Western sort of spiritual seeking is misguided? No, on the contrary, but the aims of such seeking should be understood fully.

The aim of any spiritual seeking should be, as it was for many mythical figures we turn to as role-models, for its sake alone, rather than for any sort of benefit one could seemingly derive from it. This is of course my own opinion, but as I said in the beginning, perverting spiritual doctrines for prizes won for "being at one with nature" goes against the spiritual seeking itself, and does indeed relegate spirituality to material gain. Even perceived spiritual gains earned for, um, being happy are perverted into material gain.

As to Raptures, Aeons, Messiahs, Ages of Aquarius and other "shifts" from what I have seen they are political constructs, made to cause me, the believer, to feel that I am better than you, the non-believer. They can be safely ignored.

 

[Magicus Textor]

Going on to the concept of Love, I think this is one of the most misrepresented concepts ever. Much of this comes from the teachings of Jesus, loving thy neighbor as thyself, etc. While this is good advice, I also think that it is phenomenally bad advice, as there is nothing wrong with feeling bad, angry, sad, jealous, covetous, or any of the so-called negative feelings, and union can be found within them as within any of the positive ones, as they are all reflections of the same Zero I mentioned earlier. One need not purge oneself of any "lower" feelings in order to reach enlightenment, in my opinion, but rather learn to use them and their (forgive the word) energy to one's advantage. Love is, to me, the attainment of union with the universe, but in a very abstract way. Rather than divorcing oneself of negativity, Love is the perception that negative and positive are really the same thing.

There is never anything "wrong", but I find that the more that Love is a part of what I do, the more that perception of negative is there.

In life, there are things we perceive as negative. In Love, those things still happen, but magically, they no longer appear "wrong" or "bad".

So, when something appears to be negative, I ask myself, “What does this have to teach me now?” When I have learned it, it no longer appears negative.

That's why I refuse to place any label of "suffering" on reality itself or the circumstances therein, because suffering is all within myself, and circumstances in reality will occur to maximize the triggering of that suffering, which is a very compassionate act to help us to learn the lessons that suffering has to teach us even more.

 

[Magicus Textor]

I'm struggling to find how you came to that conclusion based on what I wrote but if I have inadvertently and unintentionally indicated that then I apologise. I never wrote that nor intended it. In fact holding ideas and beliefs which may differ from consensus is wonderful and how the world seems to change and grow.

I misunderstood your original statement. yOu said:

Since everyone is, from birth, sensible of their perceived individuality, and we all have free will, then the freedom of anyone to choose for or against accepting a belief, well, that is their prerogative. However when general consensus or increasingly accepted teachings lay claim to a dubious 'truth' which defies reason and is based not on clear evidence of all things in our existence but instead on ease, preference, half understood ideas and mish-mashed concepts then does the idea of accepting all human actions as being perfection have any validity or is it not a case of accepting that all 'aspects' of the Universe/multiverse, rather than actions of humans, hold a key to the whole?

What I now get out of it isn't too different though, that if a teaching appears to be more and more accepted, but goes against what seems to be clearly true, then we should not still accept it as perfect.

Ah, but I would say there are many examples of this that are in fact the opposite. The Christian religion, for instance, is based on half-understood and much perverted truths, to make it more popular in its day. There is little within Christianity that Yeheshuah ("Jesus") actually taught.

And yet it is perfect. Not because it is true, not because it is even a good religion to be in necessarily, but because, i suspect for many of us here, it gave us the inspiration and served as a catalyst to look deeper into reality. We knew that this cannot b all there is to Truth, and thus we were forced to look deeper. Christianity has done us a very kind act in that respect, without meaning to I am sure, but there is no accident.

My apologies to those to whom this does not apply; I'm simply generalizing.

I see your point and yet still this is about the individual, what you believe and the actions you take. There is a subtle but very real difference between the path that is seen as separate and individual where everything happening is right for that person at that time and the acceptance that everything is ok simply because it is how it is meant to be. The latter suggests an apathy towards all things and no need to challenge.

Hmm, I certainly do not feel apathy. Certainly I feel a willingness to let each individual do what they do, to learn the lessons that they must learn, but I am not apathetic. Indeed, instead of apathy, there is a sense that everything is beautiful the way it is. And when something isn't beautiful, as it occasionally appears to be, then it is beautiful because I have to learn something from the ugliness, and then the ugliness is transformed into beauty again.

While I agree that talking about what 'should' be does indeed seem to cause suffering in some, this is talking about the individual and not the evidence of the Universe around us. Suffering is caused in many ways surely not simply by how we perceive things should preferably be in our own existence? It is absolutely possible to accept a hurricane and how devastating it has been while still suffering the effects of it, not simply because we wish it were different or think it should be otherwise but because we have no option but to cope with the effects.

Well, yes, when the word "cope" enters our consciousness, then certainly we must be suffering.

I can think of two definitions of the word "suffer." The first is not what we are discussing, and this is to "suffer" or to put up with something. However, it may not be suffering at all to us. For example, I am completely blind, since the age of four. So, technically, I am "suffering" this condition, but in reality it doesn't and never has significantly bothered me.

The last definition is the common one, to feel suffering in some way, because something is perceived as "wrong".

I'm not going to go into the hurricane Sandy example, because with these types of things there are often subconscious triggers that do not allow us to think clearly about the situation. But hopefully my other examples illustrate it well enough.

So let's go back to the blindness. I've been blind since the age of four, but do not suffer because of it. On the other hand, there are many others who do suffer, seemingly because of the condition of blindness. So blindness by itself does not objectively have the attribute of suffering. It is the way we think about it— the way we feel about it— that either makes us suffer or not. Some believe it should be different, but it should not be different because it is not different. Believing anything else is lying to ourselves, living in a world of illusions and fantasies.

Of course if we choose to do that, that is perfect, too, because we will learn eventually what we must learn from living in our own cocoon of lies.

But accepting it doesn't necessarily stop the suffering. Accepting that I have an illness doesn't stop the physical pain of it and accepting the pain doesn't take it away, it simply allows us to cope. As a volunteer at a hospice, this is something all too clear. We are talking about different sufferings here I guess but it feels too simplistic to try to boil it all down to a single point when life is so complex and we are part of that life, as you point out, for whatever perfect reason.

Well here we go with definitions again. If I am in pain, do I need to be suffering? Certainly most people don't go beyond the pain, and think that they have to suffer, but if we really look at it, is that true? Myself, it has not proved to be true.

This is a minor example, and I am not trying to put it on the same level as that you just gave, but when I was younger I noticed that when i really needed rest— really needed a break— that I became sick. That sickness reflected my need for rest and a break from life, and often I enjoyed those respites because they gave me a time to reflect and prepare again for the future. Also, the more serious ones pointed out occasionally that I was going down the wrong path, and those respites helped me to see that that was true, and accordingly change my path.

Now, I do not need breaks, because I love what I do and recognize my life purpose. So, now I do not get sick, not in a way that keeps me bedridden for days. I do not as a rule get the flu, or anything else. Sometimes my wife will think I'm working too hard and will prod me to take a break— maybe watch a movie or read a book— and I am much grateful for those breaks, too, and for her compassion in looking out for me in that way. So I have no need to get sick anymore. I have learned the lesson, but even when it happened, I did not mind.

Last year, my grandmother died, and my mother had some health scares. However, I did not suffer. I knew that my grandmother should move on, so I did not mind her death, and I knew that my mother was going through her own lessons, and so her health scares were for her sake, and they did not make me suffer.

As much as you, I and many others would love to find an elegant and simply equation which would define the entire Universe, I fear it is not that simple and perhaps not meant to be so? I don't know but the discussion is good.

Oh, Milfoil, the whole Universe is sublimely simple. We are the ones who try to make it otherwise.

 

[Debra]

So I have no need to get sick anymore. I have learned the lesson, but even when it happened, I did not mind.

Although many illnesses are caused by how we live--stress, diet, exercise--whether we take good care of ourselves, or not--many are not.

The problem with saying that everything is perfect and as it should be and for the best and always is, is that once the reassuring feeling of the Rightness of the Universe settles in...so what. We still have to make decisions and live with the consequences; we're still affected by others and by events outside our control and we still have to deal with all that.

 

[Magicus Textor]

Although many illnesses are caused by how we live--stress, diet, exercise--whether we take good care of ourselves, or not--many are not.

How do you know that every illness is not caused by an internal issue?

The problem with saying that everything is perfect and as it should be and for the best and always is, is that once the reassuring feeling of the Rightness of the Universe settles in...so what. We still have to make decisions and live with the consequences; we're still affected by others and by events outside our control and we still have to deal with all that.

Ah, not at all. Sure, things may happen to this body, but it is my choice, and my choice alone, whether I allow those events to make me suffer or not. There is no Universal law that says, “You must suffer if X happens.” Look at the masters who can go through extreme circumstances, but yet experience no suffering at all. They have simply chosen not to suffer, and that is all.

When we let go of the need to suffer, the decisions will come. We do not make them, but they will be obvious.

I'll give an example. I was in college, where I met my wife. I was maybe two months from graduating, but I had not been in it for probably over a year. It seemed pointless, and I could see no reason to continue on. I had also taken some incompletes the previous year, and so my last semester was pretty rough.

I suffered. Why? Not because of the work load or because of anything else, but because I simply could not see the point to be there. Yet, I also suffered because I had the belief that I would be a failure if I did not complete my degree.

I meditated on it a lot, consulted many people, and in the end came to the conclusion that my belief was faulty. I was not, and never could be, a failure, and college could not define me either way.

So, I refused to complete it. It was something I did not believe in, and I would not complete it out of fear.

After I made the decision, I experienced great peace. Now, I run my own business for Web development and services, in addition to another site for my professional readings and our Order. I have no regret about what I chose.

Once I gave up the limiting beliefs, the decision was clear, and nothing else could be decided. No other decision could be made, and in that certainty was great peace.

It did not concern me that from the outside, the decision might look stupid, irresponsible, characterize me as lazy or unmotivated, or anything like that. I knew the truth of it, and that's all that mattered.

Once we let go of our need to make decisions, and to suffer consequences, then the decisions are made, and the "consequences" wash over us without touching or affecting us in the least. However, once we have a need for things to be a certain way, then we suffer, then we have consequences, then we have regrets and resentments. It is the choice of each individual, that no one else can make.

Someone can stand here and scream at me about what a horrible person I am, and I can either choose to suffer and take offense, beginning a whole cycle of karma that may last years, decades, or lifetimes; or I can choose to not suffer. If it hurts, then I see why it hurts, and what perhaps I believe about myself that allowed me to suffer. Whether it hurts or not, i realize it is because of myself, but has nothing whatsoever to do with the other. They made their decision to scream, in this example, and I make my decision to suffer and react, or not to suffer and remain in Peace and Joy. Nothing can force me to make the decision to suffer.

 

[Debra]

Yeah! When you figure out what's best, and are able to act on it, you feel better. I think most people recognize that we sometimes spin ourselves up into suffering because our priorities or our views are distorted.

What I'm aiming at, Magicus Textor, is skepticism about the belief that "mind over matter" negates suffering.

 

[Milfoil]

Closrapexa, I share many of your sentiments especially those on love and spiritual seeking for the right reasons.

Something about this whole idea of everything being perfect just as it is, doesn't feel right, and although I can see the philosophical argument for it on a personal level, in the wider sense, without the imperfect, there can be no concept of perfection so it rather cancels itself out as a cerebral argument. If it comes down to a personal choice, and it seems to be, in Magicor Textor's examples, all about his own personal experiences, then how does that relate to someone with multiple personality disorder or borderline personality disorder? It also assumes that humans are distinct from and superior to all other life forms in that only humans can suffer because they choose to think that way.

When I read much of what you write MT, it is all about you and your experiences, not your Grandmother's or your Mother's feelings - but how it impacted on you rather than them! This suggests that you only see within the boundaries of your own personal frame of reference. When people work together to help one another, it becomes apparent, especially in cases of brutal and traumatic abuse or torture, that it is not as simple as choosing to accept that all things happen for a reason. It is tied into the same notions of only cherry picking the nice, pleasant, happy things. The flip side of that same coin, the terror, fear and pain cannot be faced by some people who have gone through incredible trauma. The abuse impacts at a soul level, deep, way deep into the subconscious and is beyond a mere psychological choice or change of mind. The way that the brain seems to work in these cases is that the short and mid term memory is bypassed so that traumatic memories can be buried deep down in the reptilian brain and with no direct access so there are gaps in memory, yet the nightmares remain and the feelings of dread and terror lie just below the surface, making everyday life a living nightmare. Choice doesn't come into it, nor does acceptance.

I'm sorry but this simplistic view of suffering does not fit with what I have witnessed over the past 40 odd years.

Whether the Universe = zero I cannot say or even know how to address, it seems to stem from older teachings which, again, are someone else's ideas, cerebral perhaps? I don't know. Language is too small and restrictive to adequately outline such infinite concepts.

However, this is really getting away from the nub of the initial thread topic.

 

[Milfoil]

What I'm aiming at, Magicus Textor, is skepticism about the belief that "mind over matter" negates suffering.

Me too, unfortunately I have witnessed way too much that doesn't fit that narrow premiss. It is dangerously close to the similar new age concepts that seem to suggest that if you die from cancer it's because you didn't visualise hard enough to live . . .

 

[Magicus Textor]

Something about this whole idea of everything being perfect just as it is, doesn't feel right, and although I can see the philosophical argument for it on a personal level, in the wider sense, without the imperfect, there can be no concept of perfection so it rather cancels itself out as a cerebral argument.

What is "imperfection"?

If it comes down to a personal choice, and it seems to be, in Magicor Textor's examples, all about his own personal experiences, then how does that relate to someone with multiple personality disorder or borderline personality disorder?

I do not see your point here.

It also assumes that humans are distinct from and superior to all other life forms in that only humans can suffer because they choose to think that way.

I agree and disagree. Firstly, I never stated that animals can't choose, either. However, because they have less ability to choose, then yes it is unlikely that an animal would simply choose not to suffer. In my own view, as well as that of much of Eastern thought, every soul starts out as a lower lifeform. In fact, most of our lifetimes are as animals, plants, or even minerals of some kind. I read of a master once who remembered his time as a diamond.

It is only in about the final 10,000-25,000 years of the soul's journey that we have built up enough good karma to be human. Though I've met animals before where I could tell that they were very close, and would probably become human fairly soon.

When I read much of what you write MT, it is all about you and your experiences, not your Grandmother's or your Mother's feelings - but how it impacted on you rather than them! This suggests that you only see within the boundaries of your own personal frame of reference. When people work together to help one another, it becomes apparent, especially in cases of brutal and traumatic abuse or torture, that it is not as simple as choosing to accept that all things happen for a reason. It is tied into the same notions of only cherry picking the nice, pleasant, happy things. The flip side of that same coin, the terror, fear and pain cannot be faced by some people who have gone through incredible trauma. The abuse impacts at a soul level, deep, way deep into the subconscious and is beyond a mere psychological choice or change of mind. The way that the brain seems to work in these cases is that the short and mid term memory is bypassed so that traumatic memories can be buried deep down in the reptilian brain and with no direct access so there are gaps in memory, yet the nightmares remain and the feelings of dread and terror lie just below the surface, making everyday life a living nightmare. Choice doesn't come into it, nor does acceptance.

I am simply giving my own experiences. I am not in the mind of either my mother nor anyone else, so I cannot tell you what exactly they believe, feel, etc, except by external clues, which can often be inaccurate at best. However, I can tell you that when we are free of suffering, we are also free to help others without attachment, without bias, without our own suffering getting in the way. When we ourselves have Peace and Love, that Love will transform others simply by us being there for them.

In the final few years of my grandmothers life, she was not herself. She was a very strong woman when she was, well, in her sane mind, so to speak, but the final few years were very rough. She had dementia in her last few years, and was committed into an assisted living home when she attempted to commit suicide when my family was trying to take care of her.

The last year of her life was the worst. She had broken her hip, but that only began the downward spiral. She was incoherent at most times.

It was in the last week of her life. She had caught pneumonia as well as several other ailments. I could feel on a soul level that she did not have long to go.

When I visited her in the hospital for the last time, I could feel that she was too afraid to go, and did not want to let go. I tuned into her soul and told her that it was OK to leave, as we all would be fine, and she'd be much happier on the other side. It was because I was not suffering that I could be clear-minded enough to do this.

That weekend, she died peacefully in the middle of the night. She waited until my family had stepped out for only a few minutes. She wanted to be alone.

So no, Milfoil, I am not caught up in my own world, oblivious to the suffering of others. But when I choose not to suffer, I can be freer to aid in the relief of other's suffering. However, I can only guide them to that relief; I cannot make the choice for them.

I am not "cherry-picking", simply recognizing that suffering is not necessary. As soon as we realize that, then this world has no more meaning for us, so I also recognize that it is a choice that many are unable or unwilling to make right now. I do not make light of the traumatic experience of others, which is why I have discussed my own experiences instead of pretending to know about those of others. I agree that in the depths of suffering, we cannot make much of a choice. But we can make small choices. We can make the choice to suffer a little less, maybe even an infinitesimal amount less. Over years, over lifetimes, that will add up, and we will gain more choice.

But with each choice, you can choose either to suffer more, or to suffer less. With each occasion where you would usually suffer, you can choose to deepen that vāsanā (karmic pattern or habit) by responding in the same way, or by weakening it by choosing differently and looking within instead.

It all comes down to those small choices, either to move upwards, or to sink downwards.

I'm sorry but this simplistic view of suffering does not fit with what I have witnessed over the past 40 odd years.

Who says the Universe cannot be simple? But at the same time, it is anything but simple.

 

[Magicus Textor]

Yeah! When you figure out what's best, and are able to act on it, you feel better. I think most people recognize that we sometimes spin ourselves up into suffering because our priorities or our views are distorted.

What I'm aiming at, Magicus Textor, is skepticism about the belief that "mind over matter" negates suffering.

I wouldn't call it mind over matter, but more the exaltation of mind above matter, or at least choice above circumstance.