Value and Worth

[Debra]

I don't think this is right. You can choose to think about things differently, or to act differently, but feelings are of the body, not the will. A feeling that you will yourself to have ("I WILL love my enemy, I WILL NOT feel resentment," for example) are not genuine. In the first case, fake love; in the second, denial and suppression.

I've been surprised at the longevity of deep feelings. I was reintroduced to some 50 year-old emotions recently and what an interesting experience that was.

I'm trying to think of a great spiritual leader, real or mythical, whose equinimity and strength came without suffering. I just can't.

 

[Magicus Textor]

I don't think this is right. You can choose to think about things differently, or to act differently, but feelings are of the body, not the will. A feeling that you will yourself to have ("I WILL love my enemy, I WILL NOT feel resentment," for example) are not genuine. In the first case, fake love; in the second, denial and suppression.

I've been surprised at the longevity of deep feelings. I was reintroduced to some 50 year-old emotions recently and what an interesting experience that was.

I'm trying to think of a great spiritual leader, real or mythical, whose equinimity and strength came without suffering. I just can't.

I don't want to keep up this topic, since Milfoil said it is off-topic.

I disagree with you, but...well neither of us can prove it one way or the other, so I'm not sure that this conversation can go anywhere.

I believe that feelings are of the ego, not of the body, and that these feelings can last not only 50 years, but many lifetimes. I've done healing for people who had mysterious feelings whose source was in a lifetime 500, 1000, or even 2000 years ago. So I cannot accept as truth what you state above.

We can choose our feelings. We are simply not accustomed to doing so, so it is difficult for most, again because of the vāsanās (karmic patterns) that each of us have.

No, no spiritual master has gotten there without suffering, as suffering is an integral part of helping us to learn the lessons we must learn. But pretty universally, those masters do not suffer, even if it appears that they may suffer, once they reach that state.

 

[espearite]

It's not about being unkind or unpleasant, but about accepting balanced reality.

Whether people/souls signed up for anything particular in this life before being born, I cannot say nor prove. These beliefs are popular in the west since the 60s but not held by all cultures.

It's not really a debate about whether one person has had a difficult life or another a relatively easy one (none of us can assess or judge what anyone else's life has been based on our own frame of reference) but about the very recent (last 20 years or so) trend of spiritual beliefs which lean towards the pleasant, easy, painless and sweet that simply doesn't reflect the truth of life.

I can understand where you are coming from and you bring up a very very good life lesson. This year, I just figured the meaning of the saying, "no pain, no gain" - and isn't that what life's all about? Not everything is a walk in the park, especially if you want to survive this life. This is so hard to explain but, it's impossible to always be in a state of comfort and joy. We tolerate the bad, but only the bad we choose to tolerate and call "enough of." When we reach for our dreams, it's going to be unpleasant and in the way that's going to make us want to quit (another lesson I learned this year is not to walk away, not matter how discouraging life gets). I think that is the real suffering. This type of suffering is different though from the kind one finds oneself in and isn't healthy, such as a bad relationship they need to get out of.

 

[Zephyros]

Buddhism gives and interesting take on the subject of suffering. Suffering is not a freak occurrence that happens, must be remedied and then ends, as in "once I drink I won't be thirsty anymore and so my suffering will cease" but actually the ongoing default. To live is to suffer, in essence, if you take a breath and need another one, then you are suffering for that next breath. The fact that you exist at all implies that you are not at union with creation, and so you suffer. Nirvana is coming to the point beyond all suffering, complete union with the universe and in effect, completely erasing yourself in favor of the higher existence.

In effect, this gives us not to ignore or even overcome suffering, but accepting it with equanimity and recognizing that it isn't something that should or can be remedied. As long as one thinks that suffering isn't something that should happen buy something that isn't a normal part of existing, then one will never reach peace. That "should" then, is the cause of all suffering. Leonard Cohen, after converting to Buddhism said that he felt greater peace when he accepted that in this life, he couldn't always win, and that loss was as much a part of life as anything else.

In the Thoth, one of the cards that always gave me a hard time was the Three of Swords, Sorrow, as I could not understand it, especially as the book I read about it described it as not really being sorrow! I asked about this in a thread, and one of the answers I received was this amazing quote from Scion:

Originally Posted by Scion
Gerald Suster has a lovely riff in his book on the Thoth about this card as the Lord of Sorrow: he points out that the 3 of Swords isn't about Suffering as in "waaaahhh I'm sad!" or "Rats I should've known he was cheating" but more an awareness of the price we pay to be alive. It is Suffering in the Mahayana sense: Suffering which always arises from Desire, the same Desire which is the underpinning of all Material Life. It's Suffering on a cosmic scale, global. The pain in Truth... I always see it as a reminder that part of being a conscious mind is accepting the pain that is a manifest part of living, not in a fatalistic sense, but in a gnostic sense. And in context it can be a beautiful positive uplifting card.

Of course, as great as Scion is, no one says it as well as Woody Allen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCxCRI2Qv6U

 

[PAMUYA]

Suffering is a way that we learn.

Suffering is a part of joy, as joy is a part of suffering, we learn lessons from both, same coin different sides. The Hag makes us look in the mirror, the dark side of ourselves and life. We need to learn to sit with the uneasiness of our feelings and seek compassion for ourselves. Most of us have no compassion for ourselves, we are much harder on ourselves than with others. We all are grasping for happiness, and hide from suffering. Feelings are just feelings, something that is created in our minds through life experiences, and we do not have to be controled by them. We cannot stop the feelings(because they are deepy rooted in our minds), but we can control how we respond to them.

I believe rites of passage is very important for our development. I believe that our culture has become too "kid" centric. We do everything for our children, not letting our children go through the process of making mistakes or seeing life and death.(I am using the term "we" as a culture) We are also teaching our children that growing old is a bad thing. The old are hidden away, made fun of.... have you seen the recent "hooters" commerical?. Throw Mom and Dad into a home, pretend we are not growing old, dye our hair, botox, facelifts... We no longer honor our elders or their wisdom.

These old tales and fables are hidden away, they are "scarry" or to violant, or not politically correct. It does not make the child "feel good" about themselves. It is all about feeling good and not doing good. Our value and worth of things are way off track, most seek material weath, always wanting more and more,... while their spiritual needs are left behind. People are not willing to work for things, they expect to be given more and more. Your Spiritual path is something one must take, it cannot be given. This is why I feel most people must go through trama before they realize the need for a spritiual life.

Sorry I rammbled.... don't know what came over me

 

[Richard]

.......Sorry I rammbled.... don't know what came over me

Thank you for rambling. You have expressed exactly my thoughts about these matters much better than I could have.

 

[Milfoil]

Some really interesting and wonderful observations. I love that concept Closrapexa and of course, Scion put it so well. THAT card is never an easy one to look straight in the face and the deeper the feelings or there more that is at stake, the less able we are to see past the pain to the truth of it.

Pamuya, I also believe in the old tales and rites of passage. We have all but lost them in contemporary society and it shows. Robert Bly wrote about similar issues in 'The Sibling Society' back in the late 90's.

I keep thinking about stories like Harry Potter which do still give kids and adults these messages of moral and ethical fortitude, personal, psychological strength and endurance as well as physical and mental acuity. The story teaches about humble beginnings and the need for humility, not knowing it all yet somehow believing in oneself, becoming a leader through necessity not ego, taking responsibility yet listening to others, pain and struggle alongside magic, joy and friendship. There are some deep and beautiful lessons in this story and I like to think that the Spirits have not given up on us but simply keep giving us the stories we need.

 

[Milfoil]

(another lesson I learned this year is not to walk away, not matter how discouraging life gets). I think that is the real suffering. This type of suffering is different though from the kind one finds oneself in and isn't healthy, such as a bad relationship they need to get out of.

Yes and this contradicts the often misinterpreted New Age version of everything should feel right, fit into place, run smoothly etc if it is meant to be your 'path'. Not one hero myth tells it this way, instead they are in the right place at the right time, everything points to them doing a certain thing or they have help from the Gods but there are always trials, difficulties, losses and problems to overcome. IF they succeed, if they choose to accept the mission, if they persevere and hold the dream even when the going gets tough, then wisdom and connection is the reward. It is a BIG part of the whole and I find that to be too much of a coincidence all around the world to be ignored.

 

[Chiska]

Suffering is a part of joy, as joy is a part of suffering, we learn lessons from both, same coin different sides. The Hag makes us look in the mirror, the dark side of ourselves and life. We need to learn to sit with the uneasiness of our feelings and seek compassion for ourselves. Most of us have no compassion for ourselves, we are much harder on ourselves than with others. We all are grasping for happiness, and hide from suffering. Feelings are just feelings, something that is created in our minds through life experiences, and we do not have to be controled by them. We cannot stop the feelings(because they are deepy rooted in our minds), but we can control how we respond to them.

I remember when I first read The Prophet by Khalil Gibran when I was young teen. I was moved by "On Joy and Sorrow," but I really didn't understand it.

The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain

Later, I did. When my first husband died, I felt hollow. There was just nothing left. The hole that was left would never be filled. And yet, it was. And I appreciate the joy more now and treasure it more as well. The feelings I felt during mourning were intense. But I didn't try to suppress them. I experienced them and I still do all these years later. Most of the ragged sorrow has been replaced with memories of the good times. Of how special our time was together - both of us were damaged goods and we helped each other heal. He died happy and safe. I was able to move into a good, happy, and healthy relationship. Quite a cycle.

 

[PAMUYA]

I remember when I first read The Prophet by Khalil Gibran when I was young teen. I was moved by "On Joy and Sorrow," but I really didn't understand it.



Later, I did. When my first husband died, I felt hollow. There was just nothing left. The hole that was left would never be filled. And yet, it was. And I appreciate the joy more now and treasure it more as well. The feelings I felt during mourning were intense. But I didn't try to suppress them. I experienced them and I still do all these years later. Most of the ragged sorrow has been replaced with memories of the good times. Of how special our time was together - both of us were damaged goods and we helped each other heal. He died happy and safe. I was able to move into a good, happy, and healthy relationship. Quite a cycle.

Thank you for sharing your personal story... I too have experienced great sorrow and understand your experience, when time has passed how sorrow can manifest into wisdom and appreciate the joys of everyday life.